Doc's bishopric Sunday School (Noun or adjective? One word or two?)
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22-04-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(22-04-2013 04:15 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Doc: What other Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus to show that he was the Messiah?

Impulse: Matthew 2:23! The verse is "... he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: He shall be called a Nazarene". But, I cannot find the reference for it in the Old Testament.

Doc: Let me help (flipping through his Bible leisurely, then faster and finally frantically): It's not here! Perhaps in the Apocrypha? Or the Pseudo-Epigraphia?

Impulse: Nope. Not there. Already checked.

Doc: But it must be! This prophecy is necessary to justify Jesus coming from Nazareth. Nazareth was the Washington D.C. of ancient Israel, from which nothing good can come. How can his birth in Bethlehem be foretold in the Old Testament, but his derivation from Nazareth not be recorded?

Impulse: Perhaps Matthew made up the prophecy to make up for the fact that Nazareth, despite its importance in later years was not mentioned even once in the Old Testament. Since the Messiah was widely expected to come from Bethlehem and not Nazareth, Jesus's derivation from the latter city was an embarrassment to be explained. It is entirely possible that Jesus was even born in Nazareth with the Bethlehem birth narrative being a later invention.

Doc (covering his ears and humming "Sodom and Gomorrah" by the Village People very loudly): I'm not listening! I'm not listening!

Umm Doc you got a bigger problem here. The town of Nazareth wasn't founded until around 50 CE or 15-20 years after Jesus' supposed death so he couldn't be from that town. Jesus of Nazareth is probably a mistranslation of Jesus the Nazarene, Nazarene being a sect of Copic Jews that were led by John the Baptist, the cousin of Jesus and then later by James his younger brother. This also explains why Jesus seems to be subordinate to John the Baptist when they meet for the first time.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-04-2013, 09:47 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Revenant77x,

That's an excellent point. I'm glad you brought it up. Do you have any sources you can quote re: Nazareth?

There may also be confusion with the word Nazirite, i.e. one who takes a vow to God. I personally suspect that the "prophecy" in Matthew 2:23 is a confused rendering of Judges 13:5. In speaking of Samson, an "angel" tells his expectant mother that, "You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”

This passage is also similar to Luke 1:31, "But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end” that one could accuse both Matthew and Luke of a deliberate mangling of the original passage in Judges to make the prophecy "fit".

Doc
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22-04-2013, 10:10 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(22-04-2013 09:47 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Revenant77x,

That's an excellent point. I'm glad you brought it up. Do you have any sources you can quote re: Nazareth?

There may also be confusion with the word Nazirite, i.e. one who takes a vow to God. I personally suspect that the "prophecy" in Matthew 2:23 is a confused rendering of Judges 13:5. In speaking of Samson, an "angel" tells his expectant mother that, "You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”

This passage is also similar to Luke 1:31, "But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end” that one could accuse both Matthew and Luke of a deliberate mangling of the original passage in Judges to make the prophecy "fit".

Doc

The dead sea scrolls are a good source of information on the Essenes of which the Nazarene were a sect.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/018...Essene.php

[url]( http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/jlgi/jlgi05.htm[/url]

[url](http://www.essene.com/[/url]

http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/TrimmNazars.htm

http://www.petahtikvah.com/Articles/nazarenes.htm

Also I would like to thank Mark Fulton for these links. He did this research and deserves full credit for it.

Also of note is the fact that James the brother of Jesus has a letter included in the canonical new testament so that lends a bit of credence to these claims.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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23-04-2013, 05:08 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Doc, fortifying himself with a big swig from the emergency supply of "communion wine" he keeps in his drawer: All right, kids, time to finish the section on prophecies in the Old Testament fulfilled by Christ. Turn to Isaiah 7:14-17 where we read the famous passage of a virgin giving birth, later fulfilled by Mary, the mother of Jesus.

DLJ: With regards to the "virgin birth", it is important to understand the whole passage. Many people are very familiar with the "virgin" portion but are completely ignorant of the rest of the prophecy.

The context involves a war between the southern kingdom of Judah and an alliance between the northern kingdom of Israel and the Syrian kingdom of Aram. Hearing of the alliance, King Ahaz and his people become afraid. Isaiah the prophet then presents himself to King Ahaz and tries to calm his fears by announcing that the Lord has spoken to him saying, "It will not take place, it will not happen" (meaning, of course, the destruction of Judah). He then goes on to pronounce the famous virgin passage in Isaiah 7:14-17, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign, the almah [literally `young woman' or `maid,' not betulah, `virgin'] will be with child and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The Lord will bring on you and your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah-he will bring the king of Assyria."

What is Isaiah telling King Ahaz here? He is claiming that God will intervene in the coming war and ensure that the dreaded outcome of the destruction of Judah by Israel and Syria will not come to pass. He also is saying that before a child now in the womb of his mother grows old enough to know the difference between right and wrong (variously estimated as between two and five years of age), both attacking kingdoms will be destroyed by Assyria, who incidentally would also overpower Judah and make it a vassal state. It is the age of the child, not his virgin birth, that is the important factor.

What was the actual historical result of the confrontation? We find that out not in Isaiah but in 2 Chronicles 28:5-8 where we read that, for his wickedness in leading the people of Judah astray, King Ahaz was given over by God (the same God who promised him deliverance from these very same antagonists) to the king of Aram, who took many of his people captive to Damascus. He was also defeated by the king of Israel, who killed 120,000 Judean soldiers, killed Maaseiah (the king's son) and other high officials, and captured 200,000 women and children (the improbably large numbers are another issue altogether). Of what use then was the Lord's promise that the threatened invasion "will not take place, it will not happen"? If the prophecy's immediate application was invalid, how can the distant application pertaining to the birth of Christ hold true?

In Isaiah 8:1-3, the very next chapter, we read the following: "Then [Isaiah] went to the prophetess [presumably his second wife], and she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the Lord said to [Isaiah], `Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. Before the boy knows how to say "My father" or "My mother," the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.'" This is evidently a continuation of the prophecy in the previous chapter, since it refers to the same players and events and has the same poetic phrasing. Maher-Shalal-Hash- Baz appears then to be the young boy earlier talked of. However, he was most definitely not born of a virgin, in which case how can the distant application of the prophecy refer to the virgin birth of anybody?

We see, therefore, that Matthew plucked this section of Isaiah entirely out of context, perhaps to enhance Jesus's status as a deity by ascribing to him a virgin birth. This would then put Jesus on a par with other virgin-born gods, such as Dionysus, Herakles, Perseus, Mithra, and Horus, with whom Matthew's readers would have been extremely familiar. Without special credentials, the chances of Jesus's entry into a crowded deity market would have been doubtful, thus requiring Matthew to pull out all the stops.

Doc, startled awake: Hmph? What did you say?
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23-04-2013, 10:50 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
That's interesting, docskeptic. I hadn't heard this before about the "virgin birth" prophecy.

I have noticed, however, that every Messiah prophecy was about deliverance from whomever Israel's main enemy was at the time -- and naturally, none of them came to pass. It's no surprise that Isaiah prophesied the destruction of Damascus (which didn't happen) and the destruction of Babylon (which didn't happen). The denialists/apologists might see it differently (if they completely ignore and forget the part about "it will never again be inhabited" except by hyenas, dragons, etc.) but it's clear why Isaiah spoke against these specific cities... they were the contemporary enemies of Israel.

Thanks for the info about the virgin birth prophecy. I've read that passage several times before but never noticed the context.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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23-04-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(23-04-2013 10:50 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  That's interesting, docskeptic. I hadn't heard this before about the "virgin birth" prophecy.

I have noticed, however, that every Messiah prophecy was about deliverance from whomever Israel's main enemy was at the time -- and naturally, none of them came to pass. It's no surprise that Isaiah prophesied the destruction of Damascus (which didn't happen) and the destruction of Babylon (which didn't happen). The denialists/apologists might see it differently (if they completely ignore and forget the part about "it will never again be inhabited" except by hyenas, dragons, etc.) but it's clear why Isaiah spoke against these specific cities... they were the contemporary enemies of Israel.

Thanks for the info about the virgin birth prophecy. I've read that passage several times before but never noticed the context.

Starcrash,

In the interest of full disclosure, I should note that the kernel for this idea is from Thomas Paine. In his Age of Reason, he notes the discrepancy between Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 7 and the actual outcome of the battle as documented 2 Chron. 28.

Why Thomas Paine isn't celebrated for the intellectual giant that he is is beyond me. Perhaps we should start a "Recognize Thomas Paine" movement or a fan club?

Doc
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24-04-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Starcrash: Sir, have you ever thought about circumcision?

Doc (startled): Uh, why no, that is, I never....

Starcrash: Well, I was studying the topic when I came across the passage in Exodus 4 where God was angry with Moses for not circumcising his son and sought to kill him (Moses).

Doc (relieved): Oh. See, I thought you meant...

Starcrash: To protect Moses, his wife circumcised their son and flung the bloody foreskin at Moses' feet, berating him all the while for bringing this misfortune upon them.

Doc: I don't see where this is....

Starcrash: My point is this. Exodus 2:21 says that Moses was 40 years old when he escaped to Midian where he married Zipporah. Acts 4:30 says that Moses was 80 years old when he saw the burning bush. Surely, his sons were not little when he left for Egypt. Also, he had two sons and only one of them was forcibly circumcised. Which one was it and how old was this unfortunate lad?

Doc, crossing his legs and in a high, strangled voice: How... how interesting.
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24-04-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Doc, how do I break the news to you. Thomas Paine was far to much for the ordinary person for him to be celebrated. He was useful to the american "revolutionaries" but after became a pain for them. As always the victors, in this case rich slave owning landowners, wrote the histories.

Besides what has US history got to do with the great all encompassing god, who does seem to screw up his divine text with some regularity.
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24-04-2013, 11:56 AM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Say...who's teaching this class anyway?
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24-04-2013, 02:13 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(24-04-2013 11:56 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Say...who's teaching this class anyway?

Shhhh you'll hurt Doc's feelings.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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