Doc's bishopric Sunday School (Noun or adjective? One word or two?)
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02-05-2013, 07:09 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
That's great! At least two physicians in our midst. Mark would you tell us the name of your book and is it sold on Amazon? Thanks.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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02-05-2013, 07:16 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
One of Doc's final comments in his book is having to do with how much time is wasted worshipping. I had thought of this some time ago and made some calculations, they're staggering. See below.


I was doing some arithmetic on how many man-hours and workdays (I am a GC) are lost in the US to Sunday services.

From http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfac...tml#attend

"Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend."

Based on this figure that means 330,000,000 x 20.4% = 67,320,000 Americans attend church on Sunday. According to the US Census Bureau 62% are between the ages of 18 and 64. Let’s say the service runs one hour on average thus 67,320,000 hours x 62% = 41,738,400 hours divided by 8 hours per day = 5,217,300 work days. There are 260 workdays in a year so this equals 20,066 work years or 436 lifetimes of work! (20,066/(64-18))

Stop to think how much real good could be done with that time:
Building shelters for the homeless
Mentoring children
Cleaning polluted sites
Tending to the sick
Feeding the poor
Planting a garden
Teaching math and science
Family time


Two hands working accomplish more than a thousand clasped in prayer.
Anonymous

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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02-05-2013, 08:12 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(02-05-2013 07:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  One of Doc's final comments in his book is having to do with how much time is wasted worshipping. I had thought of this some time ago and made some calculations, they're staggering. See below.


I was doing some arithmetic on how many man-hours and workdays (I am a GC) are lost in the US to Sunday services.

From http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfac...tml#attend

"Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend."

Based on this figure that means 330,000,000 x 20.4% = 67,320,000 Americans attend church on Sunday. According to the US Census Bureau 62% are between the ages of 18 and 64. Let’s say the service runs one hour on average thus 67,320,000 hours x 62% = 41,738,400 hours divided by 8 hours per day = 5,217,300 work days. There are 260 workdays in a year so this equals 20,066 work years or 436 lifetimes of work! (20,066/(64-18))

Stop to think how much real good could be done with that time:
Building shelters for the homeless
Mentoring children
Cleaning polluted sites
Tending to the sick
Feeding the poor
Planting a garden
Teaching math and science
Family time


Two hands working accomplish more than a thousand clasped in prayer.
Anonymous

Well said! Yes, what an enormous waste of time and effort in going to church. And petrol.

The result....psychological damage. War. Suppression of science. Homophobia.

My book is called "Get over Christianity by Understang It." It ain't quite published yet...I keep adding to it LOL. It will be on Amazon one day. Bits of it are on my website if you're interested. Thanks for asking. You should tell us about you.
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02-05-2013, 08:17 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(02-05-2013 08:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(02-05-2013 07:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  One of Doc's final comments in his book is having to do with how much time is wasted worshipping. I had thought of this some time ago and made some calculations, they're staggering. See below.


I was doing some arithmetic on how many man-hours and workdays (I am a GC) are lost in the US to Sunday services.

From http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfac...tml#attend

"Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend."

Based on this figure that means 330,000,000 x 20.4% = 67,320,000 Americans attend church on Sunday. According to the US Census Bureau 62% are between the ages of 18 and 64. Let’s say the service runs one hour on average thus 67,320,000 hours x 62% = 41,738,400 hours divided by 8 hours per day = 5,217,300 work days. There are 260 workdays in a year so this equals 20,066 work years or 436 lifetimes of work! (20,066/(64-18))

Stop to think how much real good could be done with that time:
Building shelters for the homeless
Mentoring children
Cleaning polluted sites
Tending to the sick
Feeding the poor
Planting a garden
Teaching math and science
Family time


Two hands working accomplish more than a thousand clasped in prayer.
Anonymous

Well said! Yes, what an enormous waste of time and effort in going to church. And petrol.

The result....psychological damage. War. Suppression of science. Homophobia.

My book is called "Get over Christianity by Understang It." It ain't quite published yet...I keep adding to it LOL. It will be on Amazon one day. Bits of it are on my website if you're interested. Thanks for asking. You should tell us about you.

Mark was nice enough to let me see a rough copy and it is an incredible book. Anyone that read the thread on Saul of Tarsus thats the style of the entire thing. Very well researched and easy to understand. Whenever he does get it up I would highly recommend it.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-05-2013, 08:18 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(02-05-2013 06:19 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(02-05-2013 09:45 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Doc (blushing to the roots of his receding hairline): Full Circle and Revenant, thanks for the compliments. I have thoroughly enjoyed posting on this thread and hope to keep it up till I run out of Bible stories or zingers. Let me know when I've jumped the shark, will you?

My story is not that impressive or interesting. I grew up as an Indian expatriate in Kuwait with parents of the Plymouth Brethren persuasion. For those not familiar with this denomination, we are to the right of the Southern Baptists (when they visited the US, my parents refused to attend Baptist churches because they felt the chuches were too liberal!). Growing up in Kuwait limits your entertainment possibilities, therefore, our lives revolved around the church.

We attended church at least twice a week in addition to Sunday School. If an itinerant preacher passed through, then, oh, joy! we got to go again. The PB have no clergy and women are not allowed to participate in services. Therefore, all males (usually adult, but exceptionally, teens) were encouraged to preach or exhort. That meant that we had to know the Bible well.

Our Sunday Schools were rigorous with end-of-term exams, including essay questions. Therefore, a lot of the kids from that denomination are exceptionally well-versed in the Bible. We also used a lot of aids such as commentaries, atlases, dictionaries, etc. to deepen our knowledge of the Bible.

In 2009, due to a variety of reasons, but primarily because of my love for science, I abandoned my faith and found peace and happiness in pursuing reason (my extensive reading of the Bible also convinced me that this could not be the Word of God). I also enjoy writing and decided to combine my love of Bible teaching with my atheism in that medium. Part of that endeavour is what you read on this forum.

That's my story in a nutshell. I would really enjoy hearing from others as well, if you are inclined to share. That would persuade me that I am not the only "crazy" person around as my still deeply religious family insist on calling me.

Doc

Hey doc, that's real interesting. Plymouth Brethren heh? As in that nut (?D'Arby ) who invented dispensationalism? Kuwait! Wow...sounds bizzare. What sort of doc are you?

I'm an Australian GP. Here's the preface to a book I've written.

I was born in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. My parents were practicing Catholics.
I attended Catholic schools during my formative years. As a child and young man I never felt comfortable with Christianity, considering much of it inherently implausible. Like millions of others I suffered through religious instruction and church services, but I didn’t have the maturity or inclination or time to seriously question the dogma. I now regret the waste of countless hours lost in Christian indoctrination during my youth.

The day I left home as a sixteen year old I stopped going to church. I obtained a medical degree, and am now a practicing doctor on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. I own a practice with a particular interest in preventative medicine. I have a holistic approach to my patients, and try to help people achieve not only good health, but also happiness.

Some years ago I began to notice that many of my Christian patients had significant psychological issues, and I wondered to what degree their Christian beliefs were responsible for their problems. I suspected that many political issues, too, had their roots in religious beliefs. The time was right to make a serious study of the religion I was born into.

I wanted to discover the essence of Christianity, and spent nearly all my spare time in the next seven years studying early Christian history, with a particular emphasis on the bible. The more I learned, the more intriguing the puzzle became.
After many years of study I arrived at some firm conclusions. I thought it worth sharing, so wrote it down. The result is this, my first book, a product of over seven years of intensive thought and investigation.

I write in a colloquial, rather than formal style, and not as a biblical scholar, but as a layman, which I hope adds appeal to the writing. Some of my views are partly based on my own professional experience. What’s revealed may be life changing for some people.

I hope this book will appeal to everyone who enjoys history and informed opinions about the Bible and Christianity.

Mark,
I am an internist with GI/endoscopy focus. To the rest of you, that means I boldly go where no man has gone before.

Yes, that Darby. John N. Darby of Dispensationalism fame. Also, A.N. Groves, E. Cronin and George Muller were famous Brethren (well, famous to us anyway). Isn't Australia a hotbed for Plymouth Brethren of the Closed type?

P.S. What is the name of your book?

Doc
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02-05-2013, 08:52 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(02-05-2013 08:18 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(02-05-2013 06:19 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey doc, that's real interesting. Plymouth Brethren heh? As in that nut (?D'Arby ) who invented dispensationalism? Kuwait! Wow...sounds bizzare. What sort of doc are you?

I'm an Australian GP. Here's the preface to a book I've written.

I was born in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. My parents were practicing Catholics.
I attended Catholic schools during my formative years. As a child and young man I never felt comfortable with Christianity, considering much of it inherently implausible. Like millions of others I suffered through religious instruction and church services, but I didn’t have the maturity or inclination or time to seriously question the dogma. I now regret the waste of countless hours lost in Christian indoctrination during my youth.

The day I left home as a sixteen year old I stopped going to church. I obtained a medical degree, and am now a practicing doctor on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. I own a practice with a particular interest in preventative medicine. I have a holistic approach to my patients, and try to help people achieve not only good health, but also happiness.

Some years ago I began to notice that many of my Christian patients had significant psychological issues, and I wondered to what degree their Christian beliefs were responsible for their problems. I suspected that many political issues, too, had their roots in religious beliefs. The time was right to make a serious study of the religion I was born into.

I wanted to discover the essence of Christianity, and spent nearly all my spare time in the next seven years studying early Christian history, with a particular emphasis on the bible. The more I learned, the more intriguing the puzzle became.
After many years of study I arrived at some firm conclusions. I thought it worth sharing, so wrote it down. The result is this, my first book, a product of over seven years of intensive thought and investigation.

I write in a colloquial, rather than formal style, and not as a biblical scholar, but as a layman, which I hope adds appeal to the writing. Some of my views are partly based on my own professional experience. What’s revealed may be life changing for some people.

I hope this book will appeal to everyone who enjoys history and informed opinions about the Bible and Christianity.

Mark,
I am an internist with GI/endoscopy focus. To the rest of you, that means I boldly go where no man has gone before.

Yes, that Darby. John N. Darby of Dispensationalism fame. Also, A.N. Groves, E. Cronin and George Muller were famous Brethren (well, famous to us anyway). Isn't Australia a hotbed for Plymouth Brethren of the Closed type?

P.S. What is the name of your book?

Doc

Hi...that's a nice (for you) area of medicine to get into. Lucrative, and not too emotionally draining.

I'm not sure about the Plymouth Brethren here. I've never heard of them here. I'll google it when I get some time.

My book is called "Get over Christianity by Understanding It" What's yours called? Tell us more about it.
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02-05-2013, 09:05 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(02-05-2013 08:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Well said! Yes, what an enormous waste of time and effort in going to church. And petrol.

The result....psychological damage. War. Suppression of science. Homophobia.

My book is called "Get over Christianity by Understang It." It ain't quite published yet...I keep adding to it LOL. It will be on Amazon one day. Bits of it are on my website if you're interested. Thanks for asking. You should tell us about you.

I was born in Havana, Cuba. My parents brought me to the US before I was a year old just as Castro was coming into power. As you might imagine I was brought up Catholic. While we went to mass every Sunday I never read the Bible, but what I did read was a 24 volume set of the Encyclopeadia Britannica that I devoured. I found everything in it fascinating. I wanted to be either a marine biologist or a paleontologist.

In my teens I attanded Friday youth services and it was here that I met a young woman that I fell in love with. She was there out of curiosity accompanying her friend and she was Jewish. For the next three years I felt and experienced the full wrath of religious fervor, hypocrisy and hate from both families. After that I stopped attending mass and drifted away from the Church confused, angry and depressed.

Religion fell by the wayside and I didn't much think of it for many years and then, for reasons I don't remember or can't explain, I became consumed by what I perceive as the great damage that religious indoctrination causes children. Perhaps similar to PST, these buried feelings surfaced with a vengence a decade ago.

I'm married to my best friend and traveling companion, we have no children, do have several dogs and we have a rental property business. Whenever I can I go SCUBA diving (I'm an instructor) or travel, in particuar to see historical sites and wild places. For instance I've been to Cradle Mountain in Tasmania as well as Hobart, Cairns, Sydney, Brisbane, Daintree National Park and of course the Great Barrier Reef! All beautiful places. I sincerely hope to return to Australia in the near future.

PS It may interest you that all my siblings are in the medical profession too.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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02-05-2013, 09:35 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(02-05-2013 09:05 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(02-05-2013 08:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Well said! Yes, what an enormous waste of time and effort in going to church. And petrol.

The result....psychological damage. War. Suppression of science. Homophobia.

My book is called "Get over Christianity by Understang It." It ain't quite published yet...I keep adding to it LOL. It will be on Amazon one day. Bits of it are on my website if you're interested. Thanks for asking. You should tell us about you.

I was born in Havana, Cuba. My parents brought me to the US before I was a year old just as Castro was coming into power. As you might imagine I was brought up Catholic. While we went to mass every Sunday I never read the Bible, but what I did read was a 24 volume set of the Encyclopeadia Britannica that I devoured. I found everything in it fascinating. I wanted to be either a marine biologist or a paleontologist.

In my teens I attanded Friday youth services and it was here that I met a young woman that I fell in love with. She was there out of curiosity accompanying her friend and she was Jewish. For the next three years I felt and experienced the full wrath of religious fervor, hypocrisy and hate from both families. After that I stopped attending mass and drifted away from the Church confused, angry and depressed.

Religion fell by the wayside and I didn't much think of it for many years and then, for reasons I don't remember or can't explain, I became consumed by what I perceive as the great damage that religious indoctrination causes children. Perhaps similar to PST, these buried feelings surfaced with a vengence a decade ago.

I'm married to my best friend and traveling companion, we have no children, do have several dogs and we have a rental property business. Whenever I can I go SCUBA diving (I'm an instructor) or travel, in particuar to see historical sites and wild places. For instance I've been to Cradle Mountain in Tasmania as well as Hobart, Cairns, Sydney, Brisbane, Daintree National Park and of course the Great Barrier Reef! All beautiful places. I sincerely hope to return to Australia in the near future.

PS It may interest you that all my siblings are in the medical profession too.

Thanks for sharing! That's cool that you read the encyclopaedia instead of the bible!

RE.."Religion fell by the wayside and I didn't much think of it for many years and then, for reasons I don't remember or can't explain, I became consumed by what I perceive as the great damage that religious indoctrination causes children. Perhaps similar to PST, these buried feelings surfaced with a vengence a decade ago."

This is something dear to my heart too. I want to stop the indoctrination of children.
I see religion as a corporation, a money making eneterprise, that feeds off people. And the indoctrination starts in childhood, and I think that's evil.

I know Cradle Mountain well (I grew up in Tasmania). I sailed to the barrier Reef ( the Whitsundays) two years ago. Unfortunately my new wife (Enly) doesn't like sailing, so yacht is on the market.
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02-05-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(02-05-2013 09:35 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Thanks for sharing! That's cool that you read the encyclopaedia instead of the bible!

RE.."Religion fell by the wayside and I didn't much think of it for many years and then, for reasons I don't remember or can't explain, I became consumed by what I perceive as the great damage that religious indoctrination causes children. Perhaps similar to PST, these buried feelings surfaced with a vengence a decade ago."

This is something dear to my heart too. I want to stop the indoctrination of children.
I see religion as a corporation, a money making eneterprise, that feeds off people. And the indoctrination starts in childhood, and I think that's evil.

I know Cradle Mountain well (I grew up in Tasmania). I sailed to the barrier Reef ( the Whitsundays) two years ago. Unfortunately my new wife (Enly) doesn't like sailing, so yacht is on the market.

She doesn't like saliling or doesn't like boats in general? A nice power catamaran might change her mind Cool

As far as indoctrination goes I see it happening with my brother's kids and it saddens me beyond words but it's not my place to tell him how to raise his children, and since he knows our feelings on religion he doesn't let them visit us alone for fear of us saying something, and we would never do that.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-05-2013, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2013 10:10 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
[/quote]

Hi...that's a nice (for you) area of medicine to get into. Lucrative, and not too emotionally draining.

I'm not sure about the Plymouth Brethren here. I've never heard of them here. I'll google it when I get some time.

My book is called "Get over Christianity by Understanding It" What's yours called? Tell us more about it.
[/quote]

Mark,
The name of my book is "Dissecting the Bible. An inquiry into the Bible from a modern medical perspective". In it, I attempt to analyze some of the Bible's biological and medical claims from a modern scientific and medical perspective, including miraculous biological processes such as the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection of Jesus.

Here's an example: 1 Kings 13:1-6 describes how King Jeroboam was denounced by an unnamed prophet for his idolatry. King Jeroboam points his hand at the prophet and says, "Seize him!" For this act of impiety, God withered his hand and he was unable to withdraw it.

Now, you and I both know that no form of "withering" can cause the inabilty to withdraw a fully extended arm and hand (the position of pointing), so the description of the king's illness is highly suspect, to say the least. But would that conclusion be evident to a layman? I tried to keep it objective and scientific but tried to avoid jargon so that it would be accessible to all. In this particular example, I described the anatomy of the upper extremity and invoked Sherrington's law of reciprocal innervation to demonstrate the suspect description of the king's illness.

The only clear description of an illness in the Bible is that of the epileptic boy in Mark 9:18. Even here, the Bible gets it wrong and calls the poor lad "demon-possessed".

Doc
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