Doc's bishopric Sunday School (Noun or adjective? One word or two?)
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05-05-2013, 06:16 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(05-05-2013 04:49 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Doc: Let us consider another miracle of Christ recorded in Mark 8:22-26. Here Jesus heals a blind man by spitting into his eyes thereby proving that he (Jesus) was indeed the Christ.

Girlyman: Is this the episode where, after his 'healing', the blind man said that he saw "men like trees, walking"? Whatever that meant, it certainly meant that he was not fully healed and Jesus had to lay hands on the man again after which he could see properly. Why could Jesus not heal the man properly the first time?

Doc (thinking, Must talk to that boy's parents about his name): Maybe the man was lacking faith? Maybe the blindness was so severe that Jesus also had to heal the visual center in the man's brain as a second step? I don't know! I'm just a teacher.

Girlyman: Why use spit, then? Wouldn't that have been most unhygienic? Why not just say a word and effect the healing? And how would Jesus differ from the Emperor Vespasian who also cured a blind man by means of his spit? Or from St. Francis of Paola who created two eyes and a mouth on the face of a child born without these orifices by tracing the outlines of these organs on the child's blank face with his spit?
Since Pliny the Elder also documented the use of spit as a sovereign cure for many illnesses and since Pliny and Jesus were roughly contemporaneous, wouldn't that suggest that Jesus was merely a child of his times and not a Son of God?

Doc, clutching his chest: Chest pain... must... get... nitro... Hold on, Elizabeth! I'm coming, honey. It's the big one! No wait... it's just gas.

Hey doc, that's cool that you know about Vespasian. Let me add a little more. He was Roman emperor from about 69 to 79. He was known as a great propagandist. He liked to control public opinion, and no doubt allowed this story about himself. His son Titus, who was emperor for a couple of years after him, was much the same. There's a reasonable probability that the gospels were first composed during the reign of this Vespasian and Titus, So whoever invented the idea of Vespasian using spit to cure the blind probably wrote the same story into the Gospels.

PS the gospels were, in my opinion, government propaganda as well.
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05-05-2013, 06:20 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(04-05-2013 08:23 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 06:32 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Doc: Class, today we are going to start a new section on the miracles of Jesus. These miracles prove that he was the Christ and deserve close scrutiny. Let us begin with one of his simpler miracles, that of healing Peter's mother-in-law of a fever. The story is told in Matthew 8:14-15, Mark 1:29-31, and Luke 4:38-41.

devilsadvoca8: That must be why Peter denied Jesus thrice!

Doc: Ha! Ha! (muttering, Like I haven't heard that one a million times before). Yes, scholars deduce that Luke the doctor must have written the gospel named after him, because he described the fever as 'great' and only doctors made that kind of distinction.

devilsadvoca8: But didn't Luke get his information from Paul, who got it from Peter?

Doc: Yes.

devilsadvoca8: Then this was a third-hand account and we have only the word of a fisherman that the fever was high. And being a male in a paternalistic, misogynistic society, would Peter have even taken her temperature? Wasn't it more likely that Peter's wife or some other woman told Peter that his mother-in-law's temperature was high, further compounding the problem?And if he did take her temperature, how did he know it was high without a thermometer? Subjective measurements of fever are notoriously inaccurate. Maybe it was an ordinary viral infection that was getting better around the time Jesus stepped into the house. Or maybe she was already better but lay around enjoying the attention an invalid receives before seeing an opportunity for greater glory by being 'healed' by Jesus, further enhanced by rising up and serving him a meal.

And why did Jesus 'rebuke' the fever? That would suggest that he believed the fever to have sentience or to be caused by a demon and could be threatened by him to leave the victim. How would this make Jesus different from a shaman or a witch doctor?

Doc, rubbing his chest, rummages in his desk for an antacid.

I think your interpretations here are a bit off. You're basing your ideas of what Peter would have done based on your dislike of what the society was like, seems like a house of cards. You can't just assume the Bible's incorrect because you assume the society was flawed and because Peter happened to be a part of said society. That makes for two different jumps in logic that shouldn't occur.

As for Jesus rebuking the fever He also rebuked the sea (Luke 8:24) and said the rocks themselves were able to cry out. (Luke 19:40) All it shows is that there may be more sentience in creation than commonly attributed, and that being God He was able to command all aspects thereof. There's no need to assume a demon was involved.

No, you're wrong. All it shows is that some gospel author had an active imagination.
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05-05-2013, 07:23 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(05-05-2013 04:49 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Why use spit, then? Wouldn't that have been most unhygienic? Why not just say a word and effect the healing?

Why do Christians argue that God is consistent, never-changing... "the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow"? We have countless examples of Jesus acting differently in similar situations. This is one of the reasons that we'd expect miracles today if they ever happened -- if they were used in the past, wouldn't a consistent God use them today?

In any case, it's silly to use these strange methods for healing. Another good example is the man with leprosy who was told to bathe in the Jordan. Why didn't Jesus just cure him on the spot? Or, if Jesus was trying to demonstrate something through this as the apologist might claim, why didn't Jesus always use the "Jordan method of leprosy cleansing"?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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05-05-2013, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 06:43 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Starcrash: Why do Christians argue that God is consistent, never-changing... "the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow"? We have countless examples of Jesus acting differently in similar situations. This is one of the reasons that we'd expect miracles today if they ever happened -- if they were used in the past, wouldn't a consistent God use them today?

Doc: No, no, no, no! Starcrash, you are mistaken. Jesus is consistent. We have clear evidence that he sometimes used the same method to heal illnesses. For example, the Arabic Infancy gospel relates the following incidents:

1. Chapter 6:11-17. A woman possessed by Satan was healed by holding the infant Jesus. The next day she washed the infant Jesus with perfumed water and sprinkled the runoff on a girl with leprosy and the girl was healed!
2. Chapter 6: 19-34. The healed girl comes across a crying princess. The princess says that she is sad because she gave birth to a leprous boy and the two of them were repudiated by the prince, her husband. The girl told the princess what had happened to her, so the princess washed the infant Jesus with perfumed water and sprinkled some of that water on her son and lo! he was healed!
3. Chapter 9: 2-5. A sick boy was healed by having some of Jesus's bath water sprinkled on him!
4. Chapter 9: 7-10. A neighbor child of the boy above was also sick and he too was healed of the same disease by having some of the same bath water sprinkled on him!
5. Chapter 12: 1-5. A leprous woman was healed by having some of Jesus's bath water sprinkled on her!
6. Chapter 12: 7-20. A prince's fiancee contracts leprosy and he puts her away. Seeing her sadness, the woman just spoken of above, informs the princess how she herself was cured. The princess visits the virgin Mary who gives her some of the infant Jesus's bath water and she too was instantly healed!

So, you see, Jesus (or at least the ones who washed him) was consistent and was able to heal many with his bath water. He must have taken a lot of baths. Isn't that amazing?

Starcrash: Doc, did you take all your pills today?
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05-05-2013, 09:22 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(05-05-2013 06:48 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Starcrash: Why do Christians argue that God is consistent, never-changing... "the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow"? We have countless examples of Jesus acting differently in similar situations. This is one of the reasons that we'd expect miracles today if they ever happened -- if they were used in the past, wouldn't a consistent God use them today?

Doc: No, no, no, no! Starcrash, you are mistaken. Jesus is consistent. We have clear evidence that he sometimes used the same method to heal illnesses. For example, the Arabic Infancy gospel relates the following incidents:

1. Chapter 6:11-17. A woman possessed by Satan was healed by holding the infant Jesus. The next day she washed the infant Jesus with perfumed water and sprinkled the runoff on a girl with leprosy and the girl was healed!
2. Chapter 6: 19-34. The healed girl comes across a crying princess. The princess says that she is sad because she gave birth to a leprous boy and the two of them were repudiated by the prince, her husband. The girl told the princess what had happened to her, so the princess washed the infant Jesus with perfumed water and sprinkled some of that water on her son and lo! he was healed!
3. Chapter 9: 2-5. A sick boy was healed by having some of Jesus's bath water sprinkled on him!
4. Chapter 9: 7-10. A neighbor child of the boy above was also sick and he too was healed of the same disease by having some of the same bath water sprinkled on him!
5. Chapter 12: 1-5. A leprous woman was healed by having some of Jesus's bath water sprinkled on her!
6. Chapetr 12: 7-20. A prince's fiancee contracts leprosy and he puts her away. Seeing her sadness, the woman just spoken of above, informs the princess how she herself was cured. The princess visits the virgin Mary who gives her some of the infant Jesus's bath water and she too was instantly healed!

So, you see, Jesus (or at least the ones who washed him) was consistent and was able to heal many with his bath water. He must have taken a lot of baths. Isn't that amazing?

Starcrash: Doc, did you take all your pills today?

Starcrash has a good point, for if Jesus went around spitting directly into a person's eyes to cure blindness in one instance how come he now spits into the mud first?

John 9:6-7
6 After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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06-05-2013, 09:10 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 04:08 PM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Starcrash,
Jesus was consistently inconsistent. By that I mean, that while still using the medium of spit, he altered his technique each of the three times he used the method. For example, see Mark 7:31-37 where he deals with a deaf-mute. Here he puts his fingers into the man's ears and then spits. Although the Bible does not specify where he spits, it is likely that he spit into his own hands, because Mark says that he then touched the mute's tongue with his finger, following which the man could both hear and speak.

This whole spitting and healing technique of Jesus would be a modern day infection control manager's nightmare and one can only imagine what Bible literalists do with these passages.

Doc
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06-05-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Perhaps Jesus peed in the bath water and it was holy pee that is the actual curative?
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06-05-2013, 05:24 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Devilsadvoc8: Perhaps Jesus peed in the bath water and it was holy pee that is the actual curative?

Doc: Heaven forfend! It was not his, um... "pee", as you so quaintly term it, that had curative properties but his sweat.

Devilsadvoc8: How do you know that?

Doc, resisting a strong urge to make the sign of the cross before pronouncing his name: Because, devilsadvoc8, the Arabic Infancy Gospel explicitly says so. In Chapter 8, verse 10 and 11 it says, "the Lord Jesus brought forth in Matarea a fountain in which the Lady Mary washed His shirt. And from the sweat of the Lord Jesus which she sprinkled there, balsam was produced in that region."

Also, a boy named Caleb was cured by wearing one of Jesus's swaddling clothes which was no doubt permeated with his sweat!
(ch. 10: 3)

Later another boy at the point of death was placed on Jesus's bed and covered with Jesus's clothes. As soon as he smelt the scent of Jesus, he was cured! He grew up to be Bartholomew, one of Jesus's disciples. (ch. 11: 1-8)

Lastly, a girl was afflicted by Satan who used to appear nightly and suck her blood. The Virgin Mary gave her one of Jesus's swaddling clothes. When Satan appeared that night, the girl made a turban of the cloth and it spit fire and burning coals at Satan, who fled! (ch. 13: 1-20)

Devilsadvoc8: You mean, the magic turban went, like, all Terminator on the vampire Satan?

Doc, making an unobtrusive sign of the cross: Yes. So you see, it was the sweat or body odor of Jesus that had the curative power and not his "pee".

Devilsadvoc8: Bodacious!
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06-05-2013, 07:41 PM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(06-05-2013 05:24 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Devilsadvoc8: Perhaps Jesus peed in the bath water and it was holy pee that is the actual curative?

Doc: Heaven forfend! It was not his, um... "pee", as you so quaintly term it, that had curative properties but his sweat.

Devilsadvoc8: How do you know that?

Doc, resisting a strong urge to make the sign of the cross before pronouncing his name: Because, devilsadvoc8, the Arabic Infancy Gospel explicitly says so. In Chapter 8, verse 10 and 11 it says, "the Lord Jesus brought forth in Matarea a fountain in which the Lady Mary washed His shirt. And from the sweat of the Lord Jesus which she sprinkled there, balsam was produced in that region."

Also, a boy named Caleb was cured by wearing one of Jesus's swaddling clothes which was no doubt permeated with his sweat!
(ch. 10: 3)

Later another boy at the point of death was placed on Jesus's bed and covered with Jesus's clothes. As soon as he smelt the scent of Jesus, he was cured! He grew up to be Bartholomew, one of Jesus's disciples. (ch. 11: 1-8)

Lastly, a girl was afflicted by Satan who used to appear nightly and suck her blood. The Virgin Mary gave her one of Jesus's swaddling clothes. When Satan appeared that night, the girl made a turban of the cloth and it spit fire and burning coals at Satan, who fled! (ch. 13: 1-20)

Devilsadvoc8: You mean, the magic turban went, like, all Terminator on the vampire Satan?

Doc, making an unobtrusive sign of the cross: Yes. So you see, it was the sweat or body odor of Jesus that had the curative power and not his "pee".

Devilsadvoc8: Bodacious!

I'll buy that for a dollar!
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07-05-2013, 07:58 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
But couldn't swaddling clothes contain pee or was the baby jesus toilet trained right after birth? I had to change my newborns clothing several times a day and that was with modern diapers with absorbent materials, not the basic linens of 2000 years ago. Sorry doc, but I may have to go with Jesus pee being the stuff of miracles.
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