Doc's bishopric Sunday School (Noun or adjective? One word or two?)
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08-04-2013, 05:45 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(05-04-2013 06:20 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  6. Locate the Garden of Eden on a map of the world. Hint: A single river from this land split into four. The Tigris and the Euphrates are located in modern Turkey. Draw the course of the remaining two rivers, the Pishon which Josephus says is in modern India and the Gihon which flows to modern Ethiopia in Northern Africa.
Bonus points for neatness, colorfulness and staying within the lines.

You know, there are Christians that believe that the Garden of Eden still exists! Otherwise, why bother to guard it with an angel? The flood of Noah's time would have drowned that angel bastard and any remaining fruit trees, but that hasn't stopped many like my Christian parents from believing that the Garden still exists on the map today, despite taking up an enormous and unlikely chunk of land.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-04-2013, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2013 10:56 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(07-04-2013 11:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Do women and slaves count as people or possessions?

DLJ,
As I said earlier, the answer to your post is long and complex and might best be addressed by splitting the question into two parts: slaves and women. I’d like to address the issue of slaves as persons or chattel first. It is important to realize that the Israelites differentiated between Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves since the rights and fates of the two groups differed.

Hebrew Slaves:
a. Had to be freed after serving six years (Exod. 21:2-4)
b. Had to be freed in the Jubilee year (Lev. 25:40)
c. Had to be freed if injured by the master (Exod. 21:26, 27): “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.”
d. Had to be freed if the master died without an heir (Gen 15:2)
e. If female, had to submit to her master’s sexual advances but could be freed “if she does not please her master” (Exod. 21:8)
f. If female and sold by her father, she cannot “go free as the menservants do” (Exod. 21:7)
g. If enslaved as a thief, could go free after making restitution (Exod. 22:1-4)
h. Could escape (Deut. 23:15)
i. Could make and keep money and buy himself (but not herself) off (Lev. 25:49) with a pro-rated price depending upon how many years were left till the Jubilee Year (price ranges from 30 shekels to a talent).
j. Must not be treated “with rigor” (Lev. 25:43-46)
k. Had to marry whoever the master chose for them (1 Chron: 2:34-35)
l. If freed, the Hebrew slave could take his wife and children with him, IF he was married BEFORE slavery. If not, his wife and children stayed as slaves. (Exod. 21:5)
m. Could choose to stay with his master “forever” by having his ear pierced (Deut. 15:16, 17)

Non-Hebrew slaves: None of the above (except e, f and k), plus
a. Could be beaten to within an inch of their lives, Exod. 21:20, “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”
b. Could be passed on as gifts (Gen. 29:24)
c. Could be passed on as an inheritance (Lev. 25:46)

So, to answer your question, a Hebrew slave had some rights and freedoms and seems to be counted as a person in certain circumstances, but a non-Hebrew slave was mere chattel.

I'll try to address the issue of women's rights and status in the near future, unless someone else wants to take a shot at it?

Doc
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08-04-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(08-04-2013 03:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-04-2013 12:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No. Oh ye of little faith. It's "substance under the *accident*" don't cha just know.
I mean really. How many hundreds of years ago did humans stop talking about "substance" vs accident. I always wanted to axe ask , "so do the atoms change, or do the electron orbits change, and if not, what ARE you talking about ?". It's one of the things I very early on thought, "these people are just making this shit up, cuz it's their job, and the bishop will fire them if they don't toe the line".

But I think this might explain why I'm an atheist...

I must be corpus-christi-intolerant.

Big Grin

I'm not. It's a great place to sail. Beautiful bay.
http://www.swellinfo.com/surf-forecast/c...isti-texas

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-04-2013, 12:51 PM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(08-04-2013 09:09 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(07-04-2013 11:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Do women and slaves count as people or possessions?

DLJ,
As I said earlier, the answer to your post is long and complex and might best be addressed by splitting the question into two parts: slaves and women. I’d like to address the issue of slaves as persons or chattel first. It is important to realize that the Israelites differentiated between Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves since the rights and fates of the two groups differed.

Hebrew Slaves:
a. Had to be freed after serving six years (Exod. 21:2-4)
b. Had to be freed in the Jubilee year (Lev. 25:40)
c. Had to be freed if injured by the master (Exod. 21:26, 27): “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.”
d. Had to be freed if the master died without an heir (Gen 15:2)
e. If female, had to submit to her master’s sexual advances but could be freed “if she does not please her master” (Exod. 21:8)
f. If female and sold by her father, she cannot “go free as the menservants do” (Exod. 21:7)
g. If enslaved as a thief, could go free after making restitution (Exod. 22:1-4)
h. Could escape (Deut. 23:15)
i. Could make and keep money and buy himself (but not herself) off (Lev. 25:49) with a pro-rated price depending upon how many years were left till the Jubilee Year (price ranges from 30 shekels to a talent).
j. Must not be treated “with rigor” (Lev. 25:43-46)
k. Had to marry whoever the master chose for them (1 Chron: 2:34-35)
l. If freed, the Hebrew slave could take his wife and children with him, IF he was married BEFORE slavery. If not, his wife and children stayed as slaves. (Exod. 21:5)
m. Could choose to stay with his master “forever” by having his ear pierced (Deut. 15:16, 17)

Non-Hebrew slaves: None of the above (except e, f and k), plus
a. Could be beaten to within an inch of their lives, Exod. 21:20, “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”
b. Could be passed on as gifts (Gen. 29:24)
c. Could be passed on as an inheritance (Lev. 25:46)

So, to answer your question, a Hebrew slave had some rights and freedoms and seems to be counted as a person in certain circumstances, but a non-Hebrew slave was mere chattel.

I'll try to address the issue of women's rights and status in the near future, unless someone else wants to take a shot at it?

Doc

Do we only get this information about Hebrew slaves vs non-Hebrew slaves via the Hebrews themselves? Are there any Egyptian accounts to corroborate? Any other sources than Hebrew sacred texts?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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08-04-2013, 02:08 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2013 06:31 PM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Do we only get this information about Hebrew slaves vs non-Hebrew slaves via the Hebrews themselves? Are there any Egyptian accounts to corroborate? Any other sources than Hebrew sacred texts?
[/quote]

Cardinal Smurf,
The distinction between Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves appears only in the OT. The Talmud, Josephus and the Elephantine papyri seem to make no distinction.

For comparison's sake, I found the following in the Code of Hammurabi ca. 1772 BCE (I ignored a few in the interest of space). The numbers represent the laws.

17. If anyone find runaway male or female slaves in the open country and bring them to their masters, the master of the slaves shall pay him two shekels of silver.

18. If the slave will not give the name of the master, the finder shall bring him to the palace; a further investigation must follow, and the slave shall be returned to his master.

19. If he hold the slaves in his house, and they are caught there, he shall be put to death.

20. If the slave that he caught run away from him, then shall he swear to the owners of the slave, and he is free of all blame.

116. If the prisoner die in prison from blows or maltreatment, the master of the prisoner shall convict the merchant before the judge. If he was a free-born man, the son of the merchant shall be put to death; if it was a slave, he shall pay one-third of a mina of gold, and all that the master of the prisoner gave he shall forfeit.

129. If a man's wife be surprised (in flagrante delicto) with another man, both shall be tied and thrown into the water, but the husband may pardon his wife and the king his slaves.

146. If a man take a wife and she give this man a maid-servant as wife and she bear him children, and then this maid assume equality with the wife: because she has borne him children her master shall not sell her for money, but he may keep her as a slave, reckoning her among the maid-servants.

175. If a State slave or the slave of a freed man marry the daughter of a free man, and children are born, the master of the slave shall have no right to enslave the children of the free.

199. If (any man) put out the eye of a man's slave, or break the bone of a man's slave, he shall pay one half of its (!) value.

205. If the slave of a freed man strike the body of a freed man, his ear shall be cut off.

215. If a physician make a large incision with an operating knife and cure it, or if he open a tumor (over the eye) with an operating knife, and saves the eye, he shall receive ten shekels in money.

216. If the patient be a freed man, he receives five shekels.

217. If he be the slave of some one, his owner shall give the physician two shekels.

218. If a physician make a large incision with the operating knife, and kill him, or open a tumor with the operating knife, and cut out the eye, his hands shall be cut off.

219. If a physician make a large incision in the slave of a freed man, and kill him, he shall replace the slave with another slave.

278. If any one buy a male or female slave, and before a month has elapsed the benu-disease (?epilepsy) be developed, he shall return the slave to the seller, and receive the money which he had paid.

281. If they are from another country, the buyer shall declare the amount of money paid therefor (sic) to the merchant, and keep the male or female slave.

282. If a slave say to his master: "You are not my master," if they convict him his master shall cut off his ear.

Please note that several laws are similar to those recorded in the OT, indicating a possible common source.

Of particular interest to me as a physician are nos. 215-219.

Also, no. 278 may be the earliest recorded instance of “Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back.”

Doc
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08-04-2013, 03:10 PM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(08-04-2013 02:08 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Of particular interest to me as a physician are nos. 215-219.

Doc

Wow, especially 218. Makes one appreciate malpractice laws?

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09-04-2013, 08:47 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2013 09:20 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Earlier we discussed the status of slaves in ancient Israel. If I may, I’d like to discuss the status of women in ancient Israel.

While in Egypt and Babylon women could hold positions such as the head of the household with all its rights and privileges, and could own property, sign contracts and partake of inheritances, Israelite women seem not to have enjoyed any such privileges.

For example,
1. They would address their husbands as ba’al (master) or adon (lord) just as a slave would. (Gen. 18:12).

2. In the Ten Commandments, we are instructed not to covet our neighbor’s house, land, servants, ox, donkey or his wife, thereby equating wives with the foregoing types of property (Deut. 5:21).

3. Wives or daughters could not inherit property unless there was no male heir (Num. 27:8).

4. The consent of a father or a husband was required to validate the vow made by a woman. They could also nullify her vow despite her objections (Num. 30:4-17). A vow made by a widow or divorcee needed no validation. In essence, then, a married woman was equated with a child.

5. A man could sell his daughter as a slave (Exod. 21:7), but not his wife even if she was acquired as war “booty” (Deut. 21: 14).

6. Bearing a son increased the woman’s status and respect (for example, bearing Abraham’s son Ishmael elevated Hagar, a former slave, to the point where she began to despise Sarah, her mistress, and Leah, the unlovely, was convinced that Jacob, her husband, would finally love her because she bore him 3 sons).

7. With rare exceptions, censuses and roll-calls only enumerated men with the standard phrase “besides women and children” added as a formula after the actual figure (Exod. 12:37). This attitude persisted in the NT to the point that there is a common misconception that Jesus fed “only” 5000 people in Matt. 14:21 and “only” 4000 in Matt. 15:38, but these figures were for men only. The “miracles” would be correspondingly greater if we added women and children to the total.

8. A widow might be forced into a levirate marriage (marrying the sibling or relative of a deceased husband, “to raise up seed to the departed brother”, Gen. 38:8 and Deut. 25:5).

9. A woman suspected of infidelity by a jealous husband, even in the total absence of evidence could be forced to undergo a trial by ordeal (Num. 5), but she had no recourse to allay any suspicions that she may have of infidelity on his part.

On the positive side, mothers were to be respected as much as fathers (Lev. 19:3) and an insult to a mother carried as much consequence as one to a father (Exod. 21:17). Certain women such as Deborah the prophetess and Athaliah the queen achieved positions of greatness, no doubt due to their own strengths and force of personality.

Doc
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09-04-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(09-04-2013 08:47 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Certain women such as Deborah the prophetess and Athaliah the queen achieved positions of greatness, no doubt due to their own strengths and force of personality.

I was under the impression that judges such as Deborah were picked because of their weaknesses, rather than "strengths and force of personality". Other judges included the weakest member of the weakest family of the weakest tribe of Israel (Gideon) and a left-hander *gasp!* (Ehud).

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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09-04-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
[/quote]I was under the impression that judges such as Deborah were picked because of their weaknesses, rather than "strengths and force of personality".

Starcrash,
Please enlighten humble self.

Doc
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09-04-2013, 12:40 PM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(09-04-2013 08:47 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Earlier we discussed the status of slaves in ancient Israel. If I may, I’d like to discuss the status of women in ancient Israel.

While in Egypt and Babylon women could hold positions such as the head of the household with all its rights and privileges, and could own property, sign contracts and partake of inheritances, Israelite women seem not to have enjoyed any such privileges.

For example,
1. They would address their husbands as ba’al (master) or adon (lord) just as a slave would. (Gen. 18:12).

2. In the Ten Commandments, we are instructed not to covet our neighbor’s house, land, servants, ox, donkey or his wife, thereby equating wives with the foregoing types of property (Deut. 5:21).

3. Wives or daughters could not inherit property unless there was no male heir (Num. 27:8).

4. The consent of a father or a husband was required to validate the vow made by a woman. They could also nullify her vow despite her objections (Num. 30:4-17). A vow made by a widow or divorcee needed no validation. In essence, then, a married woman was equated with a child.

5. A man could sell his daughter as a slave (Exod. 21:7), but not his wife even if she was acquired as war “booty” (Deut. 21: 14).

6. Bearing a son increased the woman’s status and respect (for example, bearing Abraham’s son Ishmael elevated Hagar, a former slave, to the point where she began to despise Sarah, her mistress, and Leah, the unlovely, was convinced that Jacob, her husband, would finally love her because she bore him 3 sons).

7. With rare exceptions, censuses and roll-calls only enumerated men with the standard phrase “besides women and children” added as a formula after the actual figure (Exod. 12:37). This attitude persisted in the NT to the point that there is a common misconception that Jesus fed “only” 5000 people in Matt. 14:21 and “only” 4000 in Matt. 15:38, but these figures were for men only. The “miracles” would be correspondingly greater if we added women and children to the total.

8. A widow might be forced into a levirate marriage (marrying the sibling or relative of a deceased husband, “to raise up seed to the departed brother”, Gen. 38:8 and Deut. 25:5).

9. A woman suspected of infidelity by a jealous husband, even in the total absence of evidence could be forced to undergo a trial by ordeal (Num. 5), but she had no recourse to allay any suspicions that she may have of infidelity on his part.

On the positive side, mothers were to be respected as much as fathers (Lev. 19:3) and an insult to a mother carried as much consequence as one to a father (Exod. 21:17). Certain women such as Deborah the prophetess and Athaliah the queen achieved positions of greatness, no doubt due to their own strengths and force of personality.

Doc

While it can indeed be interesting to read words written by the men of the time about how they expected the women to behave, what evidence do we have that these laws were in fact respected by all parties involved? Do we just take the Hebrew scribes at their word?
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