Doc's bishopric Sunday School (Noun or adjective? One word or two?)
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03-02-2014, 01:07 PM
RE: DOC'S HYDROPHOBIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (RABIDLY PREACHING THE WORD SINCE 2013)
(03-02-2014 08:32 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Anonymous,
I was going to reply to your query about the Nazarenes, but Mark Fulton did an admirable job of that here.

If I may, I'd like to focus on the second part of your question, that of Matthew misquoting or altering OT texts to make them "fit". I've addressed this topic before, but it may be worthwhile repeating since some of Jesus' claims to divinity rest on his fulfilling prophecy.

Jesus was born in a time where gods and miracle men were a dime a dozen. To make him stand out from among this crowded field, Matthew had to pull out all the stops, hence the "prophecies". Sometimes, the results produced are just plain silly.

Here's one example, Matthew quotes Zechariah during Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Zechariah 9:9 says, "Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."

Zechariah was using an old Hebrew poetic trick of parallel phrasing to express the same idea or object. It is clear that he meant only one animal. However, in his zeal to prove that Jesus was indeed the Christ, Matthew says that he literally fulfilled this prophecy. Matthew 21: 4-7 says: "The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them".

Jesus rode on two animals simultaneously! Even more amazing, one was smaller than the other! How do you think he achieved this feat of riding and what should we call this miracle? Since anything Jesus sat on may be considered holy, I previously suggested "The Miracle of the Holy Ass".

Doc

Yes, doc, but...

The prophecy says a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew has Jesus sit on a donkey and a colt.

What about the foal?

You gotta help me here, doc. I just don't know what to believe any more.

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03-02-2014, 08:14 PM
RE: DOC'S HYDROPHOBIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (RABIDLY PREACHING THE WORD SINCE 2013)
cjlr,
Here's an even trickier one. Zechariah refers to a hamowr, a male donkey. However, in Matthew, Jesus refers to a donkey and her colt. Since Jesus did not ride into Jerusalem on a male donkey, he could not have fulfilled Zechariah's prophecy and hence could not have been the Messiah.

As for the foal, I think it eventually got casted in Shrek.

Doc
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03-02-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: DOC'S HYDROPHOBIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (RABIDLY PREACHING THE WORD SINCE 2013)
(03-02-2014 08:14 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  cjlr,
Here's an even trickier one. Zechariah refers to a hamowr, a male donkey. However, in Matthew, Jesus refers to a donkey and her colt. Since Jesus did not ride into Jerusalem on a male donkey, he could not have fulfilled Zechariah's prophecy and hence could not have been the Messiah.

As for the foal, I think it eventually got casted in Shrek.

Doc

Doc! Doc!

I got it, Doc!

What if the female donkey was pregnant with a male foal? Then we have all three...

CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS!

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03-02-2014, 09:04 PM
RE: DOC'S HYDROPHOBIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (RABIDLY PREACHING THE WORD SINCE 2013)
doc, doesn't the prophecy refer to refer to a single donkey which is a colt and and the foal of donkey. Just asking for confirmation of what appears to me.

Why did Matthew screw it up so bad that he not only got the sex wrong but decided he needed two when a single donkey would have sufficed any reasonable reading of the original prophecy. Please don't tell me it was a translation screw up.

Many years ago using a company truck that had only an AM radio, I would listen to a religious show that was filled with so called bible scholars. Man could they parse the exact meaning of some Greek word, I do not remember them dealing with Aramaic much. Often the discussion was aimed at clarifying something that could be construed as misleading or a possible conflict between the gospels. It could be amusing to listen to at times.
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04-02-2014, 08:26 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 09:35 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HYDROPHOBIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (RABIDLY PREACHING THE WORD SINCE 2013)
(03-02-2014 09:04 PM)JAH Wrote:  doc, doesn't the prophecy refer to refer to a single donkey which is a colt and and the foal of donkey. Just asking for confirmation of what appears to me.

Why did Matthew screw it up so bad that he not only got the sex wrong but decided he needed two when a single donkey would have sufficed any reasonable reading of the original prophecy. Please don't tell me it was a translation screw up.

JAH,
Matthew was an odd duck. Only he, among the 4 gospel writers, mentions two animals. Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:28-44 and John 12:12-19 all mention only 1 animal, a colt. More on his remaining prophecies later.

By the way, it is not to be doubted that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on an animal, for John Calvin says in his Treatise on Relics that the actual tail of the ass that Jesus rode on was preserved in Genoa and the skeleton of the whole animal, presumably including a tail, was preserved in Vicenza, covered with the artificial figure of an ass.

Doc
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04-02-2014, 08:35 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 04:47 PM by anonymous66.)
RE: DOC'S JINGOISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WAGING WAR AGAINST IGNORANCE SINCE 2013)
(04-02-2014 08:26 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 09:04 PM)JAH Wrote:  doc, doesn't the prophecy refer to refer to a single donkey which is a colt and and the foal of donkey. Just asking for confirmation of what appears to me.

Why did Matthew screw it up so bad that he not only got the sex wrong but decided he needed two when a single donkey would have sufficed any reasonable reading of the original prophecy. Please don't tell me it was a translation screw up.

JAH,
Matthew was an odd duck. Only he among the 4 gospel writers mentions two animals. Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:28-44 and John 12:12-19 all mention only 1 animal, a colt. More on his remaining prophecies later.

By the way, it is not to be doubted that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a animal, for John Calvin says in his Treatise on Relics that the actual tail of the ass that Jesus rode on was preserved in Genoa and the skeleton of the whole animal, presumably including a tail, was preserved in Vicenza, covered with an artificial figure of an ass.

Doc

That reminds me of how Mark Twain said you could build a large house out of the pieces of the cross kept as religious relics.
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04-02-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: DOC'S JINGOISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WAGING WAR AGAINST IGNORANCE SINCE 2013)
(03-02-2014 09:04 PM)JAH Wrote:  doc, doesn't the prophecy refer to refer to a single donkey which is a colt and and the foal of donkey. Just asking for confirmation of what appears to me.

Why did Matthew screw it up so bad that he not only got the sex wrong but decided he needed two when a single donkey would have sufficed any reasonable reading of the original prophecy. Please don't tell me it was a translation screw up.

Many years ago using a company truck that had only an AM radio, I would listen to a religious show that was filled with so called bible scholars. Man could they parse the exact meaning of some Greek word, I do not remember them dealing with Aramaic much. Often the discussion was aimed at clarifying something that could be construed as misleading or a possible conflict between the gospels. It could be amusing to listen to at times.

Man, in my bible studying heyday, I had Greek and Hebrew reference bibles, Strong's concordance, Vine's dictionary, commentaries, the whole rot. We loved to parse every little word and dissect sections. Neveryoumind that we were still reading copies of copies of copies of the Greek or Hebrew, this was the inerrant, inspired, Word Of God. It's amazing to me, when I look back, that the contradictions, fallacies, and horrible stories of the OT didn't jump out at me sooner. Such is the power of indoctrination and groupthink.
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04-02-2014, 10:09 AM
RE: DOC'S JINGOISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WAGING WAR AGAINST IGNORANCE SINCE 2013)
(04-02-2014 08:35 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 08:26 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  JAH,
Matthew was an odd duck. Only he among the 4 gospel writers mentions two animals. Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:28-44 and John 12:12-19 all mention only 1 animal, a colt. More on his remaining prophecies later.

By the way, it is not to be doubted that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a animal, for John Calvin says in his Treatise on Relics that the actual tail of the ass that Jesus rode on was preserved in Genoa and the skeleton of the whole animal, presumably including a tail, was preserved in Vicenza, covered with an artificial figure of an ass.

Doc

That reminds of how Mark Twain said you could build a large house out of the pieces of the cross kept as religious relics.

The need for relics and holy sites by the church (basically looking for proof) always fascinated me for a religion supposedly built on faith not sight.
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04-02-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: DOC'S JINGOISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WAGING WAR AGAINST IGNORANCE SINCE 2013)
(31-01-2014 01:51 PM)Escape Artist Wrote:  And me, too! Sadcryface2

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04-02-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: DOC'S JINGOISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WAGING WAR AGAINST IGNORANCE SINCE 2013)
(04-02-2014 10:06 AM)meremortal Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 09:04 PM)JAH Wrote:  doc, doesn't the prophecy refer to refer to a single donkey which is a colt and and the foal of donkey. Just asking for confirmation of what appears to me.

Why did Matthew screw it up so bad that he not only got the sex wrong but decided he needed two when a single donkey would have sufficed any reasonable reading of the original prophecy. Please don't tell me it was a translation screw up.

Many years ago using a company truck that had only an AM radio, I would listen to a religious show that was filled with so called bible scholars. Man could they parse the exact meaning of some Greek word, I do not remember them dealing with Aramaic much. Often the discussion was aimed at clarifying something that could be construed as misleading or a possible conflict between the gospels. It could be amusing to listen to at times.

Man, in my bible studying heyday, I had Greek and Hebrew reference bibles, Strong's concordance, Vine's dictionary, commentaries, the whole rot. We loved to parse every little word and dissect sections. Neveryoumind that we were still reading copies of copies of copies of the Greek or Hebrew, this was the inerrant, inspired, Word Of God. It's amazing to me, when I look back, that the contradictions, fallacies, and horrible stories of the OT didn't jump out at me sooner. Such is the power of indoctrination and groupthink.

Peeps gotta have lucky charms. Dodgy

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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