Doc's mephitic Sunday School (silent but deadly since 2013)
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10-04-2013, 07:16 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:11 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This faith only comes from God... meaning you can only have this faith if it is given to you.

Why would God give me faith then take it away?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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10-04-2013, 07:20 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:14 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 07:11 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  God being perfect has no bearing on literal inerrancy... unless He wants us to understand literally. His perfection circles around what He wants to teach us from scripture.

It's the same way I teach my son. I tell him to stay away from poison ivy and to not eat it because it will hurt him.

Will it hurt him? Probably not... I'm not allegeric to it so he's probably not either. Still going to take the precaution, though. Am I'm going to explain to him how thentoxins interact with his body and can potentially hurt him?

Not at 3. Maybe when he's older. He would have no clue what I was talking about.

So what did I teach him?

To stay away from poison ivy? Why? Because Daddy said so and it could hurt me.

And the Bible isn't for everyone. It's for believers. As a non-believer you have no obligation to it.

Also, believing that the Bible is inspired is purely built on faith... just like the acceptance of God. This faith only comes from God... meaning you can only have this faith if it is given to you.

By definition then you're saying that your god is not perfect. If he was perfect then his meaning would be clear. In your example you said what you are telling your son may not be true but you don't know. If god is all knowing and perfect then he would know and would be perfectly clear.

No. Again, that has nothing to do with perfection in the literal sense. I am perfectly clear with my son... to teach him a lesson... not to teach him about science. Heck, if I wanted to tell him that the poison ivy was a monster and it would eat him so stay away, I would be perfect in my lesson and goal but be completely literally errant.

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10-04-2013, 07:23 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 07:14 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  By definition then you're saying that your god is not perfect. If he was perfect then his meaning would be clear. In your example you said what you are telling your son may not be true but you don't know. If god is all knowing and perfect then he would know and would be perfectly clear.

No. Again, that has nothing to do with perfection in the literal sense. I am perfectly clear with my son... to teach him a lesson... not to teach him about science. Heck, if I wanted to tell him that the poison ivy was a monster and it would eat him so stay away, I would be perfect in my lesson and goal but be completely literally errant.

But you made sure he understood you. You used language and a concept he could understand. Congratulations you are a better teacher and father than your "perfect" god.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-04-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 07:11 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This faith only comes from God... meaning you can only have this faith if it is given to you.

Why would God give me faith then take it away?

How or why would I know that? I can't answer questions about your personal being.

My only guess would be a No True Scotsman or you were under a guise that you had faith.

You'll probably say that no... you really had faith.

I don't know Dom. I don't know. I'm just a regular guy with a BS in Communication and zero formal theology training.

I wish I had an answer for you, but I don't... and, I don't think anyone can ever answer that question for you wholly.

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10-04-2013, 07:31 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 07:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No. Again, that has nothing to do with perfection in the literal sense. I am perfectly clear with my son... to teach him a lesson... not to teach him about science. Heck, if I wanted to tell him that the poison ivy was a monster and it would eat him so stay away, I would be perfect in my lesson and goal but be completely literally errant.

But you made sure he understood you. You used language and a concept he could understand. Congratulations you are a better teacher and father than your "perfect" god.

This is the point I'm making... God does the same thing... uses ways to get the message across in a way we, or the people of that time, can understand

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10-04-2013, 07:32 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:29 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
with a BS in Communication
...

Aw c'mon now. Don't put yourself down.

Your communication-ability isn't that bad.

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10-04-2013, 07:35 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 07:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  But you made sure he understood you. You used language and a concept he could understand. Congratulations you are a better teacher and father than your "perfect" god.

This is the point I'm making... God does the same thing... uses ways to get the message across in a way we, or the people of that time, can understand

Right now can you think of a way, if you had unlimited power, to make yourself and your message known to all people on the planet in this day and age?

I can and if you're honest with yourself you could too. So why does your perfect god remain silent?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-04-2013, 07:37 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 06:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  All your assertions are based on the assumption that the Bible is literally inerrant. This is a claim that the Bible never makes.

With this key piece of understanding - that is, that the Bible has literal errors such as science, math, and "typos" - then your ENTIRE argument falls to pieces.

It teaches us about God, His plan, His characterstics, our covenant relationship with Him, and to a lesser degree; the history of His interactions with us.

I challenge you to find scripture that lines up with assertions that the Bible is literally inerrant.

Until then, your arguments do not hold up.

Kingschosen,
Welcome to the thread. I admire your courage.

What argument are you talking about? All I claimed was that this thread was going to discuss the ENTIRE Bible and not just the "sugar n'spice and everything nice" parts that Christians gravitate towards. Obviously, something in the thread touched off a nerve in you. Which part was it? The misogyny? The wholescale slaughter?

As to the inerrant claim, consider the following: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." John says this in Revelation 22:18-19 indicating that the book was perfect when he wrote it.

If God was so concerned as to give us his Word in written form, why did he not take care to ensure that it was transmitted to us inerrantly? Why choose an obscure people with a language with square letters and no vowel pointers (providing lots of opportunities for errors, omissions, duplicaitions and alternate readings) who wrote on perishable media like papyri and parchment? The transmission of perfect copies of the scriptures through the ages would have been no less a miracle than the original divine composition and would lend additional credence to the Bible's claim to have been divinely inspired.

Doc
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10-04-2013, 08:27 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 08:32 PM by docskeptic.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 06:47 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  2 Timothy 3:16

Verse here.

Kingschosen
You replied to Cardinal Smurf's inquiry about the verse claiming divine inspiration with the above. The verse says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" and you use this verse to say that all scripture is inspired but not necessarily inerrant.

But follow my argument here. In order for your assertion to be true, you need at least 2 Tim. 3:16 to be inerrant. In the absence of the original autograph, how do you know that the original verse did not say, "Only some Scripture is God-breathed and most of it is not useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"?

Since you are willing to accept 2 Tim. 3:16 as currently written as inerrant, by what criteria do you make such an allowance? And by what criteria do you exclude other portions of scripture? Is it a matter of personal tase? Or repugnance? What do you make of the following verses? "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." (Deut. 25:11-12). Inerrant or not? Inspired or not?

Doc
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10-04-2013, 09:28 PM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
KC, so if 2 Tim 3:16 is true, then the Q'ran is inspired? Ancient inscriptions in Egypt? Rigveda? Avesta?

How can we know what Timothy meant by "Scripture"?
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