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10-04-2013, 10:21 PM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:29 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 07:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Why would God give me faith then take it away?

How or why would I know that? I can't answer questions about your personal being.

My only guess would be a No True Scotsman or you were under a guise that you had faith.

You'll probably say that no... you really had faith.

I don't know Dom. I don't know. I'm just a regular guy with a BS in Communication and zero formal theology training.

I wish I had an answer for you, but I don't... and, I don't think anyone can ever answer that question for you wholly.

I suppose it was not a fair question to ask you but It really doesn't matter one way or another to me anymore. If I had been given faith and then taken away, or if I never had it but thought I did...afterall it's His will right?

I have to tell you that it boggles my mind how so many know so much about what a god wants or how a god goes about his business electing His favorites.

To me the whole concept of God reeks of primate delusion that has been transcribed by superstitious peoples in response to evolutionary traits of fight or flight that have morphed with the ego and the fear of losing the self. But what do I know?

I always distrust people who know so much about what God wants them to do to their fellows. - Susan B. Anthony

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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10-04-2013, 10:42 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 10:46 PM by JAH.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
Full Circle, you danced around one of the first thoughts that turned me against religion. It was quite simple, why does someone have to tell me what god means it should be obvious. And more so if a "flawed" human has to explain what god means does that not color the meaning.

I live in a fairly enlightened place (the San Francisco Bay Area) on the 20 minute walk to the bar one night I developed what I thought was an excellent argument about how the concept of god and religion was a human construct. With the first person I started my argument the basic response was "tell me something I don't know".

For theists to not understand that their religion and their god are human constructs indicates their inability to understand how humans work.
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10-04-2013, 10:49 PM
DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 10:42 PM)JAH Wrote:  Full Circle, you danced around one of the first thoughts that turned me against religion. It was quite simple, why does someone have to tell me what god means it should be obvious. And more so if a "flawed" human has to explain what god means does that not color the meaning.

I live in a fairly enlightened place (the San Francisco Bay Area) on the 20 minute walk to the bar one night I developed what I thought was an excellent argument about how the concept of god and religion was a human construct. With the first person I started my argument the basic response was "tell me something I don't know".

For theists to not understand that their religion and their god are human constructs indicates their inability to understand how humans work.

Why is it necessarily an inability? Perhaps sometimes it may simply be an unwillingness?
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11-04-2013, 02:58 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 06:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 06:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I'd like to know where the Bible claims it was "inspired", where that initial claim was made, by whom, and in what context, and how it makes sense that that claim was in a Bible text BEFORE there even exited a "ta biblia", which was non-unanimously VOTED into a canon centuries after the texts were written, and how the canon formation then makes sense if the votes were non-unanimous, and the criteria for at least some of it was , (Eusebius) that there are 4 winds and 4 columns on which the earth stands. Paul never claimed his letters were "inspired", and to this day, various sects disagree about what belongs in ti or out of it. Neither did any of the actual writers claim "inspiration". So who cooked up that concept, and exactly when.

The Tribe of Benjamin was one of their favorite whipping boys, as along with Judah, it was one of the two Southern tribes, which kept trying to assert it dominance, and pre-eminence.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...olden+calf

Was the assembly of JEPD by R "inspired". Was the pair of scissors where they cut up JEP and just happened to find D "inspired".
I need some magic scissors.

When (St.) Jerome said all "scripture" was beneficial, there was no canon. All he meant was that ALL "holy" writing was beneficial.

Paul to Timothy.

And he was talking about the Torah and other works such as The Assumption of Moses and The Book of Enoch... both of which were considered "scripture" during that time.

Hey KC,
whodoya reckon wrote this?

Please...if you say Paul....google the topic
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11-04-2013, 03:26 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(11-04-2013 02:58 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 06:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Paul to Timothy.

And he was talking about the Torah and other works such as The Assumption of Moses and The Book of Enoch... both of which were considered "scripture" during that time.

Hey KC,
whodoya reckon wrote this?

Please...if you say Paul....google the topic

Some Roamin Roman maybe his name was Paul maybe it was Biggus Dikkus who can say it's one of the mysterious ways god works. Come to think of it God works a lot like a good fella on a construction site, gets a pay check and claims credit but is never there.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-04-2013, 04:52 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(11-04-2013 03:26 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 02:58 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey KC,
whodoya reckon wrote this?

Please...if you say Paul....google the topic

Some Roamin Roman maybe his name was Paul maybe it was Biggus Dikkus who can say it's one of the mysterious ways god works. Come to think of it God works a lot like a good fella on a construction site, gets a pay check and claims credit but is never there.

The name "Paul" is a Roman adaptation of a name that means "small". So your "Biggus Dickus" probably is quite exactly the opposite, and in fact may be, (guessing) one of the reasons Saul was SO insecure, and thus had a Napolean Complex, and demanded recognition as a pre-eminant leader. I actually think his "thorn" that he was born with, and keeps complaining about was the fact he may have been either a dwarf or just exceptionally short, and thus his name.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-04-2013, 08:15 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-04-2013 07:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is the point I'm making... God does the same thing... uses ways to get the message across in a way we, or the people of that time, can understand

Right now can you think of a way, if you had unlimited power, to make yourself and your message known to all people on the planet in this day and age?

I can and if you're honest with yourself you could too. So why does your perfect god remain silent?

God's salvation isn't for all people. He never planned it that way.

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11-04-2013, 08:27 AM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 08:51 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 07:37 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  What argument are you talking about? All I claimed was that this thread was going to discuss the ENTIRE Bible and not just the "sugar n'spice and everything nice" parts that Christians gravitate towards.

I was addressing the first 10 or so points you made... they are argued under the assumption of literal inerrancy.

Quote:Obviously, something in the thread touched off a nerve in you. Which part was it? The misogyny? The wholescale slaughter?

You can save the tongue-in-cheek passive aggressiveness for someone else. It doesn't work on me. I'm too awry, old, and jaded for you to elicit an emotional response from me that way.

Save your wit for those that are more fun... Egor... PJ... Heywood... etc. I'm pretty boring.

Quote:As to the inerrant claim, consider the following: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." John says this in Revelation 22:18-19 indicating that the book was perfect when he wrote it.

Ummm.

Wow. Bucky you want to take this?

Never mind, I will.

This is talking about John's Revelation. Just what John wrote. In Revelation. Nothing else. Pretty clear in the content and the context. John is warning others to not change his revelation of things to come.

Quote:If God was so concerned as to give us his Word in written form, why did he not take care to ensure that it was transmitted to us inerrantly? Why choose an obscure people with a language with square letters and no vowel pointers (providing lots of opportunities for errors, omissions, duplicaitions and alternate readings) who wrote on perishable media like papyri and parchment? The transmission of perfect copies of the scriptures through the ages would have been no less a miracle than the original divine composition and would lend additional credence to the Bible's claim to have been divinely inspired.

Doc

I have addressed this many times. His message is inerrant... the literal means are not always.

Like I said... since the subject matter isn't science... math... language... or anything like that... the literal errancy is irrelevant.

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11-04-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 08:27 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Kingschosen
You replied to Cardinal Smurf's inquiry about the verse claiming divine inspiration with the above. The verse says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" and you use this verse to say that all scripture is inspired but not necessarily inerrant.

But follow my argument here. In order for your assertion to be true, you need at least 2 Tim. 3:16 to be inerrant. In the absence of the original autograph, how do you know that the original verse did not say, "Only some Scripture is God-breathed and most of it is not useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"?

Don't move the goalposts. That's not the subject of my refutation of your claims. You make claims of the Bible's inerrancy and posts examples of literal errancy. I simply stated that the Bible made no such claim of literal inerrancy.

But, to address the above:

There is nothing. No proof. Nothing empirical. As I've stated before, the belief in the Bible is build purely on faith... just like the belief in God.

There is a belief that the Bible is true... it's message is true... and that's it's inspired. This is all because of faith. Because of what's written in the Bible, those that believe because of faith - that the Bible is inspired - use the Bible and it's verses. This is where the 2 Timothy verse comes in. If we use the Bible as a guideline, no such claim of literal inerrancy is made; thus, making any and all arguments based on literal inerrancy moot.

Quote:Since you are willing to accept 2 Tim. 3:16 as currently written as inerrant, by what criteria do you make such an allowance? And by what criteria do you exclude other portions of scripture? Is it a matter of personal tase? Or repugnance? What do you make of the following verses? "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." (Deut. 25:11-12). Inerrant or not? Inspired or not?

Doc

You, don't know me... and that's fine... but I've addressed this over and over again. The Bible has some very morally repugnant and questionable things in it.

Moreover, that is laws and regulations for the Jews.

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11-04-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: DOC'S HOLISTIC SUNDAY SCHOOL (WHERE WE TEACH THE WHOLE BIBLE)
(10-04-2013 09:28 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  KC, so if 2 Tim 3:16 is true, then the Q'ran is inspired? Ancient inscriptions in Egypt? Rigveda? Avesta?

How can we know what Timothy meant by "Scripture"?

See what I wrote to Bucky.

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