Does America Still Fear Communism?
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20-09-2012, 05:04 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 04:52 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Such as this recent bank shit that went down, that has now been regulated and will not happen again.

What makes you think that it will never happen again???

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20-09-2012, 06:21 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 05:04 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(20-09-2012 04:52 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Such as this recent bank shit that went down, that has now been regulated and will not happen again.

What makes you think that it will never happen again???

I'm not saying another recession wont happen, I'm saying it wont happen for the same reasons as to why we are in this one.

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21-09-2012, 08:06 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 04:52 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(20-09-2012 02:25 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  TL;DR

What's the answer? I need to know if I'm supposed to still fear Communism or not. Shy

Yes, it's a horrible system.

Quote: A form of social capitalism

While I agree that a form of "social capitalism" is needed, I don't see how that would mitigate financial rise and falls.
Take the most recent for example, you could have been the most socialist country in the world but at the end of the day it was banks and social greed that lead to shit storm. Banks should have known better and people should have known better (then to take out like 20 fucking mortgages on minimum wage, who the fuck does that!).

It's just part of capitalism that there is rise and falls in markets and no amount of socialism will stop that. It's probably good for the market too actually, it forces markets to being more efficient in times of a trough.

What you gotta remember is that we are still pretty early in this age we live in.
1800's there was very little global trade, America and pretty much all countries, made everything themselves. Then as technology grew (transportation in particular) so did trade. I mean I can watch the news and see my Prime Minister getting a free trade agreement with China (first in the world I might add) which shows how early along we are.
So what I'm getting at is there is of course going to be kinks in the road. Such as this recent bank shit that went down, that has now been regulated and will not happen again. Take the dotcom bubble, people have learned from that, they now want assets and such as guarantee for their money or they invest else ware.

Capitalism can only go up as we learn from our mistakes.

Social programs cushion the blows dealt to the labor population when capitalism begins to fall.

The U.S relied on a large immigrant population to get what they wanted.

It is easier to say, "Sure, there are kinks in the road," when your job hasn't been taken away from you and your benefits disappear.

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21-09-2012, 08:21 AM
Does America Still Fear Communism?
I don't fear Communism.

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21-09-2012, 08:54 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 06:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(20-09-2012 05:04 PM)bemore Wrote:  What makes you think that it will never happen again???

I'm not saying another recession wont happen, I'm saying it wont happen for the same reasons as to why we are in this one.

Isn't that what was said about the great depression? They were not the same but similar factors caused the recession. It doesn't seem to be daunting politicians to avoid these issues just yet.

Erxomai Wrote:I don't fear Communism.

I think that is grounds enough to be blacklisted.

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21-09-2012, 09:12 AM
Does America Still Fear Communism?
I do fear being blacklisted.

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21-09-2012, 09:13 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(21-09-2012 09:12 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I do fear being blacklisted.

By whom?

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21-09-2012, 09:20 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 05:01 PM)Thomas Wrote:  There is a clear distinction missing in the argument:
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. Socialism is the public (government control) of the means of production.

It is better to say that we have controls (laws such as anti-trust) to keep the game working while getting the most from the game.

That's a fair point, and I agree. But I do support social health care- I think health care should be a right, not a benefit for the well-to-do or a pitfall for those not as fortunate.

So I do support a mix of both socialism and capitalism.

(20-09-2012 05:01 PM)Thomas Wrote:  I hear the term "greedy corporate execs", but not "greedy government officials". They exist too, and in greater numbers that you may believe.

That's what Logica was referring to when he mentioned government corruption earlier in the thread. Don't think that I'm ignorant of corruption, I know it's a real problem as much as corporate greed.

(20-09-2012 05:01 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Freedom is what people want. They will trade some of it for goodies for a while, but at a point it will fail. You can't keep increasing the goodies to keep the masses satisfied. Infinite want and limited resources. People accept their limits, but don't expect the "all powerful" government to ever run out of candy. When it does, Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. Watch in horror as the US stops handing out the candy. It aon't going to be pretty.

These countries had problems because of pensions and benefits that overreached their revenue, so they couldn't pay for them. It was a result of bad management decisions as well as a recession economy, right? The European economy took a tremendous dip because of the US recession, and it lead them into a recession as well. The US recession was due just as much to a tremendous failure of government oversight and deregulation as it was to Wall Street greed and the societal failure (the push for the "American Dream" of owning a home, push for bad loans, loans people can't afford, house flipping, etc.). It was a multifaceted failure from the top to the bottom with far reaching consequences. Those consequences may have been the tipping point for other countries, which exacerbated the major weaknesses in their own economies.

These countries may be cutting back severely on benefits, but they aren't giving up on stuff like socialized medicine, are they? Nor are they giving up on capitalism, right? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds like you demonize the system because of the bad choices of the leadership in those countries. All government systems can falter because of greed and special interest. We make due the best we can and strive for improvement and balance.
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21-09-2012, 09:21 AM
Does America Still Fear Communism?
(21-09-2012 09:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-09-2012 09:12 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I do fear being blacklisted.

By whom?

ClydeLee

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21-09-2012, 09:27 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(21-09-2012 08:54 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-09-2012 06:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'm not saying another recession wont happen, I'm saying it wont happen for the same reasons as to why we are in this one.

Isn't that what was said about the great depression? They were not the same but similar factors caused the recession. It doesn't seem to be daunting politicians to avoid these issues just yet.

Erxomai Wrote:I don't fear Communism.

I think that is grounds enough to be blacklisted.

The great depression did not occur because bankers gave several mortgages to high risk people and then sold these in bundles that were classed as "safe".

Like I said, it wont happen for THAT reason. Sure something else might come along, lessons are learned in the sense of getting out of one asap from previous experience.

You can't implement something like capitalism and expect it to be 100% kink free straight off the bat.

Quote:Social programs cushion the blows dealt to the labor population when capitalism begins to fall.

The U.S relied on a large immigrant population to get what they wanted.

It is easier to say, "Sure, there are kinks in the road," when your job hasn't been taken away from you and your benefits disappear.

They hardly cousin it more then what cousins are already in place.
Lost your job? Go on the unemployment benefit.
If there's a recession, people are gonna feel it. The idea of socialist reforms is to provide basics, such as healthcare and unemployment, it's not suppose to be a nice lovely cloud to float on.

Take for example unemployment. You can't have a decent unemployment benefit, it needs to be an amount that just pays the bills. If you start giving people spending money then the incentive to go back to work is reduced. This is why i think unemployment should be the government simply taking on your basic bills (mortgage, power etc..), then food stamps (for food only, no smokes/alcohol).

It's all a balancing act.

But my point is that you can't stop a recession in the sense that everyone's quality of life will remain throughout it. It's simply unsustainable.

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