Does America Still Fear Communism?
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23-09-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(22-09-2012 07:53 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Umm I'd have to say do you understand checks and balances?

I can't see what understanding checks and balances has to do with it?

I was partially joking. Keyword: 'partially'. I definitely wasn't implying anything wild or crazy, however.

(22-09-2012 08:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Obama a Marxist? Really?

The negativity toward Obama is at least partly fueled by racism. His ideology is progressive, which only looks Marxist to the very conservative.

Those who fear a "socialist, atheist, totalitarian regime" are paranoid.

I agree with it being "partly fueled by racism"; I was trying to imply that.

I'm not saying Obama is an extremist-- I think it's important to point that out. I'm not saying he is anything like Stalin, or even Lenin; he is definitely not that fanatical, if at all.

I also, however, don't think many people realize actually how little of a difference there is, specifically within a democracy, between capitalism working ideally and socialism. It's basically a separation that is only a mental one, based on an understanding of philosophy (as it relates), society, and your corresponding world view.

I should also point out, those "paranoid" people, they are being dead serious. You're probably aware of that already, but I have a hard time even convincing myself that these people are being serious. It usually takes me until I realize that the alternative would be assuming that they are incredible actors and actresses, who deserve Academy Award nominations.

(23-09-2012 01:34 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  1.) Depends on what you call progress. To me, it is the same ole' song and dance. Nothing progressive about it at all. It is all about Statist getting more power.

Sorry you don't live in a democracy. It's really nice power to have within a society, and I'd like to let you know that we're on your side when you make the decision to move toward that power.

Quote:2.) The racism card? I think it there is far more blacks voting for Obama because he is black than their are whites voting for Romney/Other because Obama is black.

I don't think you understand racism very well.

Quote:3.) I don't know how well Marxism fits, big state government overstepping it's bounds has many names, and I don't really care where you draw the lines; it is all tyranny and oppression. Crooked men who want to retain power and seek to increase power make-up the vast majority of any government. Republican, or Democrat, it doesn't much matter; they are all cooperate whores.

Again, when you want to take the steps toward a democracy, or a functioning democracy, we will support those efforts.

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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23-09-2012, 03:48 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(23-09-2012 01:34 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(22-09-2012 08:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Obama a Marxist? Really?

The negativity toward Obama is at least partly fueled by racism. His ideology is progressive, which only looks Marxist to the very conservative.

Those who fear a "socialist, atheist, totalitarian regime" are paranoid.

1.) Depends on what you call progress. To me, it is the same ole' song and dance. Nothing progressive about it at all. It is all about Statist getting more power. 2.) The racism card? I think it there is far more blacks voting for Obama because he is black than their are whites voting for Romney/Other because Obama is black. 3.) I don't know how well Marxism fits, big state government overstepping it's bounds has many names, and I don't really care where you draw the lines; it is all tyranny and oppression. Crooked men who want to retain power and seek to increase power make-up the vast majority of any government. Republican, or Democrat, it doesn't much matter; they are all cooperate whores.

1) You gauge what is progressive by results. Westernized countries maintain an income tax. Westernized countries are successful. 2) Pugh research polls have shown that the overwhelming majority of young white males vote for Obama. 3) If you go as far as to say that income tax is tyranny, I will invite you to live in a dictatorship.

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24-09-2012, 09:38 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
TrulyX Wrote:Sorry you don't live in a democracy. It's really nice power to have within a society, and I'd like to let you know that we're on your side when you make the decision to move toward that power.

I'm not.

TrulyX Wrote:I don't think you understand racism very well.

I would say the same to you.

TrulyX Wrote:Again, when you want to take the steps toward a democracy, or a functioning democracy, we will support those efforts.

I don't know who "we" is, but it is certainly not me. Also, I do not understand how this is a rebuttal to what I said.

Logica Humano Wrote:1) You gauge what is progressive by results. Westernized countries maintain an income tax. Westernized countries are successful.

So if we have a richer economy due to slavery then that is progress to you. I disagree. The progression of a country is not measured by their results. It is measured by the quality of life of it's people, which includes the right to be free.

Logica Humano Wrote:Pugh research polls have shown that the overwhelming majority of young white males vote for Obama.
Okay, and....?

Logica Humano Wrote:3) If you go as far as to say that income tax is tyranny, I will invite you to live in a dictatorship.

Another logical fallacy brought to us by LOGICO HUMANO. Just because there exists worse tyranny, does not mean it isn't tyrannical. That is like me saying "Drinking beer makes me drunk", then your rebuttal being "Oh, yeah sure. If you think beer makes you drunk then you should chug vodka.". Well of course chugging vodka would get me drunk a lot quicker, but that doesn't mean that beer will not make me drunk.

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25-09-2012, 09:12 AM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2012 09:21 AM by TrulyX.)
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(24-09-2012 09:38 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
TrulyX Wrote:I don't think you understand racism very well.

I would say the same to you.

Based on what? I've said nothing describing racism, I've only hinted that it exists and is the cause of some negativity. Also, I'm obviously not the only one who thinks that is the case, given that Chas agreed with me.

Your comment, however, was one that was either completely irrelevant or showed ignorance.

(24-09-2012 09:38 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
TrulyX Wrote:Again, when you want to take the steps toward a democracy, or a functioning democracy, we will support those efforts.

I don't know who "we" is, but it is certainly not me. Also, I do not understand how this is a rebuttal to what I said.

I was just being an asshole.

I guess my point was, where I live (USA) the "tyranny and oppression" you seem to be talking about, doesn't apply. Where I live the government doesn't limit people's power, it gives some people the only power they have. It's the great equalizer. It's the great limiter of "tyranny and oppression" that I face, and that I see people facing every day. Tyranny and oppression exist within our society, but not within our system of government. Even corruption within our government is corruption coming from society and individuals within, not from the system of government, or government itself.

I think I should add: I said democracy, but obviously that's only half the battle. Giving people in the majority power is key, but republicanism and protecting individual rights of the minority, constitutionally, is just as important. A proper government allows for both.

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26-09-2012, 01:25 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(25-09-2012 09:12 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  Based on what? I've said nothing describing racism, I've only hinted that it exists and is the cause of some negativity. Also, I'm obviously not the only one who thinks that is the case, given that Chas agreed with me.

Your comment, however, was one that was either completely irrelevant or showed ignorance.

Based on your description of my definition. Not treating people equally because of the color of their skin is racism, full stop. Apparently your definition differs from that, but mine is correct, whether Chas agrees or not.

TrulyX Wrote:I was just being an asshole.

I guess my point was, where I live (USA) the "tyranny and oppression" you seem to be talking about, doesn't apply. Where I live the government doesn't limit people's power, it gives some people the only power they have. It's the great equalizer. It's the great limiter of "tyranny and oppression" that I face, and that I see people facing every day. Tyranny and oppression exist within our society, but not within our system of government. Even corruption within our government is corruption coming from society and individuals within, not from the system of government, or government itself.

I think I should add: I said democracy, but obviously that's only half the battle. Giving people in the majority power is key, but republicanism and protecting individual rights of the minority, constitutionally, is just as important. A proper government allows for both.

Well, I am an American as well. Just because you are blind to the tyranny and oppression, does not mean that it isn't there. The federal reserve (the 'Quasi Government branch') devalues the money you earn (By printing money out of thin air, backed by nothing, and artificial inflation), The fed. govt. takes you money without consent (Federal Income Tax), they prohibit you from doing as you wish to your own body , they tell you what food you can not eat, what drugs you can not take (Everything from drinking raw milk, to shooting heroin) , they take your private information (Fed, Income Tax Return Forms) whether you consent or not, they listen in to your phone calls as they see fit (The Patriot Act), they have given themselves permission to imprison or kill you without due trial (NDAA), etc. These are disguising perversions of our Republic that are in direct violation of our Constitution.

Democracy is a terrible form of government, and one that we have never had. It is always short lived, preys on the weak, and the minorities, and ends in catastrophe, almost always followed by an Oligarchy or (the illusion of a Monarchy.) We are (or we are supposed to be) and Constitutional Republic. Although there are democratic (Not the political party) aspects to our Republic it is a far cry from one, thank Cheese Wizz. I think that is what you were alluding to in your last paragraph but I wrote it out more clearly to end any confusion. Anyhow, I get a bit insulted when our politicians tout democracy as if it is a good thing, and something that should be spread. We should properly tout Republicanism (Again, not the political party).

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26-09-2012, 09:09 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
Quote:The fed. govt. takes you money without consent (Federal Income Tax),

IT'S NOT IMMORAL

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27-09-2012, 07:31 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2012 01:54 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(24-09-2012 09:38 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  So if we have a richer economy due to slavery then that is progress to you. I disagree. The progression of a country is not measured by their results. It is measured by the quality of life of it's people, which includes the right to be free.

Does it make countries richer? As a matter of fact, it doesn't. Slavery is a liability to businesses more than that of a paid worker.
You do, in fact, measure the progression by results. Freedom of the people is a result. You have yet to prove how income tax encroaches on your freedom. Freedom does not mean you get what you want. There are rules, and one must follow them.

Equating slavery to income tax is ridiculous by the way. Develop a new argument or go home.

(24-09-2012 09:38 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Okay, and....?

And that'd mean you are wrong, as always.

(24-09-2012 09:38 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Another logical fallacy brought to us by LOGICO HUMANO. Just because there exists worse tyranny, does not mean it isn't tyrannical. That is like me saying "Drinking beer makes me drunk", then your rebuttal being "Oh, yeah sure. If you think beer makes you drunk then you should chug vodka.". Well of course chugging vodka would get me drunk a lot quicker, but that doesn't mean that beer will not make me drunk.

Not a fallacy. You have yet to prove to me that income tax is immoral in the first place. I'd also advise you to start spelling my name right, or I will start fucking around with your name.

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27-09-2012, 10:57 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(26-09-2012 01:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Based on your description of my definition. Not treating people equally because of the color of their skin is racism, full stop. Apparently your definition differs from that, but mine is correct, whether Chas agrees or not.

You direct quote was: "I think it there is far more blacks voting for Obama because he is black than their are whites voting for Romney/Other because Obama is black."

Racism is, out of pure ignorance and stupidity, dividing human beings by 'race' and then deeming any of those superior, or inferior, to others, in one way or the other. "Not treating people equally", when because of race, is racial discrimination. What you described, if it is even the case, definitely isn't racism or motivated by racism, and you'd probably even have a tough time arguing it as discrimination.

Quote:Well, I am an American as well. Just because you are blind to the tyranny and oppression, does not mean that it isn't there. The federal reserve (the 'Quasi Government branch') devalues the money you earn (By printing money out of thin air, backed by nothing, and artificial inflation), The fed. govt. takes you money without consent (Federal Income Tax), they prohibit you from doing as you wish to your own body , they tell you what food you can not eat, what drugs you can not take (Everything from drinking raw milk, to shooting heroin) , they take your private information (Fed, Income Tax Return Forms) whether you consent or not, they listen in to your phone calls as they see fit (The Patriot Act), they have given themselves permission to imprison or kill you without due trial (NDAA), etc. These are disguising perversions of our Republic that are in direct violation of our Constitution.

Democracy is a terrible form of government, and one that we have never had. It is always short lived, preys on the weak, and the minorities, and ends in catastrophe, almost always followed by an Oligarchy or (the illusion of a Monarchy.) We are (or we are supposed to be) and Constitutional Republic. Although there are democratic (Not the political party) aspects to our Republic it is a far cry from one, thank Cheese Wizz. I think that is what you were alluding to in your last paragraph but I wrote it out more clearly to end any confusion. Anyhow, I get a bit insulted when our politicians tout democracy as if it is a good thing, and something that should be spread. We should properly tout Republicanism (Again, not the political party).

Like I said...

"Tyranny and oppression exist within our society, but not within our system of government. Even corruption within our government is corruption coming from society and individuals within, not from the system of government, or government itself."

I should probably point out that our government system isn't a perfect one, but it's one structured to work. I'd definitely be on anyone's side arguing that it's not perfect, or is not working currently, but I'd have to say that it is definitely one built, in such a way, to work, and I wouldn't agree with anarchism.

By democracy I guess I wasn't meaning direct, or full on, democracy, I was referring to it as an essential element of government in which the majority, the people, have a say. A constitution alone is paper to wipe your ass on without people to, in one way or another, uphold it. It would obviously help if these people were educated, engaged and truly in control, but I guess that might be asking too much. I would, however, prefer it, even in a less than ideal form, to the alternative.

You can see the problems with republicanism alone, just by looking at the USA all throughout our history, even up to today. All of our problems with personal freedoms and liberties, ironically enough, both economically and socially, had to be solved democratically and are still having to be solved democratically today.

I disagreed with a lot of the stuff you pointed out, that you seem not to like, but I guess at this point, I'll accept that we just will not agree, at least I don't want to go through that process.

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27-09-2012, 02:10 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(26-09-2012 09:09 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:The fed. govt. takes you money without consent (Federal Income Tax),

IT'S NOT IMMORAL

To me it is.

Logica Humano Wrote:Does it make countries richer? As a matter of fact, it doesn't. Slavery is a liability to businesses more than that of a paid worker.
You do, in fact, measure the progression by results. Freedom of the people is a result. You have yet to prove how income tax encroaches on your freedom. Freedom does not mean you get what you want. There are rules, and one must follow them.

Well, I could argue that it can make a country richer, but whether it does or not is inconsequential for my argument. You can not measure progress by results alone, the process is as important as the results. Violating peoples human rights to achieve wealth is not progress whether it be by slavery, theft, coercion, or any other means you can think of. Freedom is not a result. It is a means by which we get results. Freedom is indeed doing whatever the hell I want to, but it should be limited only when my actions harm another or limits their freedom so long as they are not harming other. That is the cornerstone of the Bill of Rights, and freedom anywhere. By forcing me to pay an income tax, against my will, then they are limiting my freedom. Whats worse is my freedom is being violated when I am not only not doing anything, good, bad, or indifferent. Furthermore, they are forcing me to give them personal information against my will. I have a right to privacy, but when I pay income taxes I have to tell them my name, my income, whether or not I have bought a house, have had children, went to school, etc. I have a right to keep that information to myself if I so wish. Using earmuffs logic, I have become in debt to the government for using their currency, but that is false to. They force me to use their currency to pay them back for forcing me to use their currency...It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Logica Humano Wrote:And that'd mean you are wrong, as always.

If anything that strengthens my argument, it certainly does not contradict my statement.

Logica Humano Wrote:Not a fallacy. You have yet to prove to me that income tax is immoral in the first place. I'd also advise you to start spelling my name right, or I will start fucking around with your name.

It is too a fallacy, it is okay, one day I will screw up too, and when you are there to correct me I will be open enough to admit it. Proving that something is immoral, or moral is impossible as it is subjective. If you want proof, none exists either way. I can only tell you that I personally consider it immoral because to me it is a form of slavery, it is coercion, and it is theft, and those things are all immoral to me. Sorry I have offended you so terribly for misspelling your forum name. I stand corrected. Get over it.

Just for you, my friend, here is dictionary.com's defination of freedom

free·dom
[free-duhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2.
exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3.
the power to determine action without restraint.
4.
political or national independence.
5.
personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.

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27-09-2012, 05:59 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(27-09-2012 02:10 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(26-09-2012 09:09 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  IT'S NOT IMMORAL

To me it is.

Logica Humano Wrote:Does it make countries richer? As a matter of fact, it doesn't. Slavery is a liability to businesses more than that of a paid worker.
You do, in fact, measure the progression by results. Freedom of the people is a result. You have yet to prove how income tax encroaches on your freedom. Freedom does not mean you get what you want. There are rules, and one must follow them.

Well, I could argue that it can make a country richer, but whether it does or not is inconsequential for my argument. You can not measure progress by results alone, the process is as important as the results. Violating peoples human rights to achieve wealth is not progress whether it be by slavery, theft, coercion, or any other means you can think of. Freedom is not a result. It is a means by which we get results. Freedom is indeed doing whatever the hell I want to, but it should be limited only when my actions harm another or limits their freedom so long as they are not harming other. That is the cornerstone of the Bill of Rights, and freedom anywhere. By forcing me to pay an income tax, against my will, then they are limiting my freedom. Whats worse is my freedom is being violated when I am not only not doing anything, good, bad, or indifferent. Furthermore, they are forcing me to give them personal information against my will. I have a right to privacy, but when I pay income taxes I have to tell them my name, my income, whether or not I have bought a house, have had children, went to school, etc. I have a right to keep that information to myself if I so wish. Using earmuffs logic, I have become in debt to the government for using their currency, but that is false to. They force me to use their currency to pay them back for forcing me to use their currency...It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Logica Humano Wrote:And that'd mean you are wrong, as always.

If anything that strengthens my argument, it certainly does not contradict my statement.

Logica Humano Wrote:Not a fallacy. You have yet to prove to me that income tax is immoral in the first place. I'd also advise you to start spelling my name right, or I will start fucking around with your name.

It is too a fallacy, it is okay, one day I will screw up too, and when you are there to correct me I will be open enough to admit it. Proving that something is immoral, or moral is impossible as it is subjective. If you want proof, none exists either way. I can only tell you that I personally consider it immoral because to me it is a form of slavery, it is coercion, and it is theft, and those things are all immoral to me. Sorry I have offended you so terribly for misspelling your forum name. I stand corrected. Get over it.

Just for you, my friend, here is dictionary.com's defination of freedom

free·dom
[free-duhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2.
exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3.
the power to determine action without restraint.
4.
political or national independence.
5.
personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.

I don't know why you said you thought the other forms of taxes I mentioned before are okay because I mentioned just this issue with it.

When you are agreeing with a business/government and fill out you're official contracts and document tax forms.. YOU ARE GIVING CONSENT TO TAXATION. It is that black and white while I normally don't see many ideas as being so. I do not understand how giving the okay to an action, equals theft?

It's not in anyway limiting your freedom. Your freedom is to not take in an income in the traditional fashion. Under every definition of freedom there.. you have the ability to live without work; also, under those terms I see and always promoted that an individual has the freedom to break the law. Not everything a person is free to do is devoid of consequence.. If you wanted, you have the freedom to work an under the table paying job and have no income tax.

I don't think that argues against the idea of the laws to begin with.. I see the enforcing and creation of the laws two separate moral/immoral arguments.

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