Does America Still Fear Communism?
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29-09-2012, 08:48 AM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2012 08:57 AM by TrulyX.)
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(28-09-2012 08:34 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Because it's the most ridiculous thing I've seen in ages to say that income tax is immoral.

I hear it all of the time; it's nothing new. Also, it's not that ridiculous if his philosophical, ideological political (however you want to look at it) view(s) is correct. It's basically the default outlook for any right-winger, specifically libertarians. If you disagree with his philosophical outlook, or worldview, you haven't argued against it, from what I've seen. Until then, it's stealing, and stealing is immoral. Unless you want to argue stealing is not immoral.

(29-09-2012 01:56 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Your argument is that the government is stealing from you. They aren't. You are wrong.

Until you actually argue that it's not stealing, you should quit arguing. Question begging really doesn't make for good argument.

I'd have to assume that he is against all forms of direct taxation, and if he is not, you could probably question him on that. You could argue that his view is an impractical one, but that doesn't question the morality of it. You could also argue he gave permission, but besides the fact that he has denied that he did, it's pretty obviously an incorrect assumption.

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29-09-2012, 09:48 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 08:48 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  Until you actually argue that it's not stealing, you should quit arguing. Question begging really doesn't make for good argument.

He is making the claim, so he must provide evidence that it is stealing.

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29-09-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 09:48 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(29-09-2012 08:48 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  Until you actually argue that it's not stealing, you should quit arguing. Question begging really doesn't make for good argument.

He is making the claim, so he must provide evidence that it is stealing.

Exactly.

And for the third time, post 68 and 69. Proof it's not immoral.

Quote:It's basically the default outlook for any right-winger, specifically libertarians.

As a right wing libertarian, I disagree with this statement.

Quote:Also, it's not that ridiculous if his philosophical, ideological political (however you want to look at it) view(s) is correct.

Which it's not, and hence ridiculous.

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29-09-2012, 10:36 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 09:48 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  He is making the claim, so he must provide evidence that it is stealing.

He did, even if not explicitly, it could easily be inferred. He pretty much argued that it's stealing by definition, a text book definition. I feel, at this point, his argument stands. Now, you either have to show that stealing is not immoral, that his definition of stealing is incorrect, or that what he is describing is not stealing. You have yet to adequately do any of those, so it's still your turn, to either provide an adequate argument or concede.

(29-09-2012 10:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And for the third time, post 68 and 69. Proof it's not immoral.

Quote:You see, consumption tax (gst) is fair for consumption products (gas, food, alcohol etc..). And income tax is fair for everything else that is not a consumption product.

You may point to something I've missed; but if that is your conclusion, that only shows that you don't understand logic or argument.

Quote:
Quote:It's basically the default outlook for any right-winger, specifically libertarians.

As a right wing libertarian, I disagree with this statement.

You would then either be contradicting your own views or it would make taking that position a lot harder to argue, if not just making you look completely idiotic, at that point, for even taking the position.

Quote:
Quote:Also, it's not that ridiculous if his philosophical, ideological political (however you want to look at it) view(s) is correct.

Which it's not, and hence ridiculous.

Which you have yet to show, and hence begging the question.

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29-09-2012, 11:17 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 10:36 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(29-09-2012 09:48 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  He is making the claim, so he must provide evidence that it is stealing.

He did, even if not explicitly, it could easily be inferred. He pretty much argued that it's stealing by definition, a text book definition. I feel, at this point, his argument stands.

No, he did not. He still has yet to prove how it is theft.

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29-09-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 11:17 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  No, he did not. He still has yet to prove how it is theft.

He presented the argument, you are the one denying that it's true.

I don't understand what you are saying at this point. He said that it was stealing, theft, however you want to put it, by definition.

You have yet to provide a valid argument as why you disagree, so you don't have any grounds on which to say he is the one begging the question. You'd have to, quoting myself, "show that stealing is not immoral, that his definition of stealing is incorrect, or that what he is describing is not stealing" (by the definition).

He doesn't have to, based on a demand from you or Earmuffs, provide a detailed, explicit argument. He has already presented the argument, at the very least, implicitly. If you want to make him a strawman argument and defeat it in order to get him to lay out a more detailed argument, go ahead, but you still must first provide a valid argument, which you have yet to do at this point.

I don't even know why I have to address this, especially at this point. What fstratzero explained on page 5 applied to your basic argument throughout the rest of the thread.

(16-09-2012 02:32 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I agree with taxes too but I have to point out the argument from tradition fallacy...

Here is his argument if you actually need to see it.

Dark Light Wrote:It is legal theft by the government....government takes the money from you without your consent.

I saw an online definition of theft described as the "taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent".

I did look back and noticed that the other argument you provided was against stealing being considered immoral, at least in the case of taxation.

(17-09-2012 09:03 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  What is acceptable to the majority of society is ethically correct until social evolution dictates otherwise.

That argument could stand. If it was me, however, I'd back away from it, because it's pretty embarrassing.

I can't even see why this is an argument still going on. It could have been ended like 8 pages ago.

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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29-09-2012, 04:33 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 01:34 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  He presented the argument, you are the one denying that it's true.

All he has done is said that he believes it is stealing. The reasons as to why it is morally acceptable, fair, and helpful have been given, now he has to address the points, or he can stop right here.

(29-09-2012 01:34 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  That argument could stand. If it was me, however, I'd back away from it, because it's pretty embarrassing.

What is embarrassing? My standing by it, or the fact that it is true?

(29-09-2012 01:34 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  I can't even see why this is an argument still going on. It could have been ended like 8 pages ago.

I am willing to stop whenever the others are willing to do so.

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29-09-2012, 04:35 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
I'm sorry, but communism is completely and utterly retarded. BLAH BLAH BLAH EVERYTHING IS UNFAIR! BLAH BLAH BLAH CAPITALISM IS UNFAIR!
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29-09-2012, 04:43 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 04:35 PM)Magoo Wrote:  I'm sorry, but communism is completely and utterly retarded. BLAH BLAH BLAH EVERYTHING IS UNFAIR! BLAH BLAH BLAH CAPITALISM IS UNFAIR!

Lol Magoo!

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29-09-2012, 06:23 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(29-09-2012 04:33 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  All he has done is said that he believes it is stealing.

That's all he needed to do. Most intelligent, rational people tend to think that stealing is immoral.

Quote:The reasons as to why it is morally acceptable, fair, and helpful have been given, now he has to address the points, or he can stop right here.

Fair is irrelevant. Helpful is irrelevant. And if you believe that you have shown it to not be immoral, then No. Sorry, try again.

Quote:What is embarrassing? My standing by it, or the fact that it is true?

What that would say about you if you actually thought that it was true. For his comments (on taxation), I'm actually aware of some people, he might even be aware of some credible people, who are in agreement. As for your comments Unsure. Even the people supporting Todd Akin would have to distance themselves from a comment like the one you made.

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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