Does America Still Fear Communism?
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16-09-2012, 07:56 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 07:46 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 07:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Your argument is that the government gave itself permission to steal from me, therefore if I complain, I'm a baby. And furthermore, because the people before me haven't overturned the governments decision on the matter that it isn't worth complaining about. I guess in 1800, slavery was okay because not enough people complained about it yet.

The truth is there are A LOT of people who are with me on this one. What we are doing is standing up. A LOT of people have gone to prison over it. The same with small government. About HALF of the country is with me on that one since large numbers of people being upset = morality for you.

what, you think "you guys" are some sort of freedom fighter rebels or something?

I really don't understand what part of "your taxes pay for shit" you don't understand.

Sure GST is a 'fairer' way to tax the population but that doesn't mean that income tax should be off the table.
GST is a way of "punishing" those that use high amounts of bad things. Like for example gas, you use a lot of gas so you pay higher amounts of GST. That GST is then used for gas related things such as roads and stuff. So the more roads you use, the more you pay for effectively. Same with tobacco and alcohol, that money is used to combat the side effects such as health problems and drink driving accidents. This means the more you use, the more you contribute to paying for those negative side effects.

But where GST comes unstuck is things like education, government (bureaucracy), military, health.

How do you determine who uses the most military? You don't/can't. And so it is fair to tax the population based on income (the more income you have the more you pay yes but also the more you have to lose).
Taxation is effectively giving us (the population) the bill for things that we don't specifically pay for.
Benefits are another one, how do you charge gst on benefits? You can't, so you charge income tax.

If income tax goes away GST will just go up because the money has to come from somewhere.
It's like this. If you earn say $100 a week. You spend $20 ($10 of which is GST) and pay $10 in income tax.
Say that $10 income tax goes away, it has to come from somewhere so GST goes up.
Now you are spending $30 a week (on the same goods, $20 gst this time) and $0 income tax.
In both cases the amount of tax and the amount left over is the same for you.

Think of income tax as GST on things we don't pay GST on.

GODDAMMIT EARMUFFS!

I am not against taxation. I am against Income Taxation. All of the things taxes pay for could easily be paid for through taxes other than income taxes. I am not a retard, I know the benefits that I receive from taxes. It is an issue of how I am taxed, I know that with no income tax other taxes will be raised, that is not the point.

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16-09-2012, 07:58 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 07:56 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 07:46 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  what, you think "you guys" are some sort of freedom fighter rebels or something?

I really don't understand what part of "your taxes pay for shit" you don't understand.

Sure GST is a 'fairer' way to tax the population but that doesn't mean that income tax should be off the table.
GST is a way of "punishing" those that use high amounts of bad things. Like for example gas, you use a lot of gas so you pay higher amounts of GST. That GST is then used for gas related things such as roads and stuff. So the more roads you use, the more you pay for effectively. Same with tobacco and alcohol, that money is used to combat the side effects such as health problems and drink driving accidents. This means the more you use, the more you contribute to paying for those negative side effects.

But where GST comes unstuck is things like education, government (bureaucracy), military, health.

How do you determine who uses the most military? You don't/can't. And so it is fair to tax the population based on income (the more income you have the more you pay yes but also the more you have to lose).
Taxation is effectively giving us (the population) the bill for things that we don't specifically pay for.
Benefits are another one, how do you charge gst on benefits? You can't, so you charge income tax.

If income tax goes away GST will just go up because the money has to come from somewhere.
It's like this. If you earn say $100 a week. You spend $20 ($10 of which is GST) and pay $10 in income tax.
Say that $10 income tax goes away, it has to come from somewhere so GST goes up.
Now you are spending $30 a week (on the same goods, $20 gst this time) and $0 income tax.
In both cases the amount of tax and the amount left over is the same for you.

Think of income tax as GST on things we don't pay GST on.

GODDAMMIT EARMUFFS!

I am not against taxation. I am against Income Taxation. All of the things taxes pay for could easily be paid for through taxes other than income taxes. I am not a retard, I know the benefits that I receive from taxes. It is an issue of how I am taxed, I know that with no income tax other taxes will be raised, that is not the point.

So what's the difference? For you, that is. If you pay the same amount overall, why does it matter what it's called?

Or is it ideological?

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16-09-2012, 08:07 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 07:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 07:56 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  GODDAMMIT EARMUFFS!

I am not against taxation. I am against Income Taxation. All of the things taxes pay for could easily be paid for through taxes other than income taxes. I am not a retard, I know the benefits that I receive from taxes. It is an issue of how I am taxed, I know that with no income tax other taxes will be raised, that is not the point.

So what's the difference? For you, that is. If you pay the same amount overall, why does it matter what it's called?

Or is it ideological?

Well, ideally I would like a much smaller government and less taxation, but you could say it is ideological.

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16-09-2012, 08:12 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 07:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 07:56 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  GODDAMMIT EARMUFFS!

I am not against taxation. I am against Income Taxation. All of the things taxes pay for could easily be paid for through taxes other than income taxes. I am not a retard, I know the benefits that I receive from taxes. It is an issue of how I am taxed, I know that with no income tax other taxes will be raised, that is not the point.

So what's the difference? For you, that is. If you pay the same amount overall, why does it matter what it's called?

Or is it ideological?

What Chas said, exactly my point.
Doesn't matter if it's called GST or Income Tax, it's all tax.

And you say we could tax everyone to pay for benefits/military etc..?
Fairly I might add, GST is not a fair way to pay for those things.

Like for gas for example, I only pay for as much as I use. But I can't pick and choice how much police I use, or how much military I use.

Income tax is fairest, easiest way to do it. Like or lump it that is it in a nutshell.

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16-09-2012, 08:15 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 08:12 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 07:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  So what's the difference? For you, that is. If you pay the same amount overall, why does it matter what it's called?

Or is it ideological?

What Chas said, exactly my point.
Doesn't matter if it's called GST or Income Tax, it's all tax.

And you say we could tax everyone to pay for benefits/military etc..?
Fairly I might add, GST is not a fair way to pay for those things.

Like for gas for example, I only pay for as much as I use. But I can't pick and choice how much police I use, or how much military I use.

Income tax is fairest, easiest way to do it. Like or lump it that is it in a nutshell.

Becuase you can choose how much gas you use makes it a better option to me. That makes it more fair. I don't understand you.

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16-09-2012, 08:18 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 08:15 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 08:12 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  What Chas said, exactly my point.
Doesn't matter if it's called GST or Income Tax, it's all tax.

And you say we could tax everyone to pay for benefits/military etc..?
Fairly I might add, GST is not a fair way to pay for those things.

Like for gas for example, I only pay for as much as I use. But I can't pick and choice how much police I use, or how much military I use.

Income tax is fairest, easiest way to do it. Like or lump it that is it in a nutshell.

Becuase you can choose how much gas you use makes it a better option to me. That makes it more fair. I don't understand you.

I'm saying, GST is fairer in that regard yes, because I choice how much gas I use and so pay higher GST on gas, which then goes towards roads etc... side effects of gas (roads need to be maintained).

What I'm saying is you don't choice how much police you use, or how much military you use or how much bureaucracy you use, you can't tax people based on usage of that because everyone pretty much uses the same. And you don't actively use it, like I don't actively hire the military in the sense like going down to the store.

SO the only way to tax people fairly for that sort of thing is income tax.

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16-09-2012, 08:44 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 08:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 08:15 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Becuase you can choose how much gas you use makes it a better option to me. That makes it more fair. I don't understand you.

I'm saying, GST is fairer in that regard yes, because I choice how much gas I use and so pay higher GST on gas, which then goes towards roads etc... side effects of gas (roads need to be maintained).

What I'm saying is you don't choice how much police you use, or how much military you use or how much bureaucracy you use, you can't tax people based on usage of that because everyone pretty much uses the same. And you don't actively use it, like I don't actively hire the military in the sense like going down to the store.

SO the only way to tax people fairly for that sort of thing is income tax.

I do not agree. Perhaps I do not understand you.

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16-09-2012, 09:24 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 08:44 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 08:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'm saying, GST is fairer in that regard yes, because I choice how much gas I use and so pay higher GST on gas, which then goes towards roads etc... side effects of gas (roads need to be maintained).

What I'm saying is you don't choice how much police you use, or how much military you use or how much bureaucracy you use, you can't tax people based on usage of that because everyone pretty much uses the same. And you don't actively use it, like I don't actively hire the military in the sense like going down to the store.

SO the only way to tax people fairly for that sort of thing is income tax.

I do not agree. Perhaps I do not understand you.

How do you not understand?? I really don't know how to simplify it but I shall try.

Gas. Say you drive 100miles each week.
Now say that for every mile you drive it costs the government 10c in road repairs and other road associated things.
So it costs the government $10 for you to drive your 100miles.
So they tax gas 10c per mile to cover costs.
So if say gas is 90c a mile. The government then adds the 10c to this, so the total price you pay is $1 a mile.
So if you drive 100miles a week you are costing the government $10 a week, BUT you are paying $10 a week in tax (which covers the $10 cost).

Say person B only drives 50miles. They're costing the government $5 a week. But they only buy $50 petrol and so only pay $5 in tax.

It's called consumption tax.

This fine for things like gas, and tobacco, junk food, alcohol etc...

But where it comes unstuck is when the government needs to pay for things such as the military.
What is the purpose of any military? Security, protect it's citizens.

So how do you determine how much protection everyone consumes? You can't. I don't purchase 100miles of military each week compared to your 50miles. It doesn't work that way.
The military works passively (in that we have no control where as we have control weather to buy petrol or not).
But the military needs to be paid for, but that money doesn't come out of think air it has to come from somewhere.

The military benefits everyone the same amount, that is it isn't measurable, it's a fixed amount. (Security).
So the total cost of that is calculated and divided over all the people it benefits.
Example:
A country of 100 people.
This country has a military that costs $1000 a year.
That means, for these 100 people to receive 'security' (because it's either, have security or not have security no in between) they must pay the $1000. Now because everyone benefits the cost is split among all 100 people.
So each person pays $10 each to have 'security'.

No one person of that 100 uses any less or any more 'security' then any other because you either have it or you don't.

The way we charge these people that $10 is income tax.


You see, consumption tax (gst) is fair for consumption products (gas, food, alcohol etc..). And income tax is fair for everything else that is not a consumption product.

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16-09-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
As for this statement

Quote:All of the things taxes pay for could easily be paid for through taxes other than income taxes.

Take my above example of the 100people country and the $1000 military bill.

If we were to increase GST on say food to pay for the military then it wouldn't be fair.

Person A in this country could be a male living on his own.
Person B in this country could be a female living on her own.

Males typically eat more food. So say Person A spends $20 a week on food (say $10 in GST tax)
Where as Person B spends $10 ($5 in gst) on food.

Both Person A and B receive the same amount of 'security' from paying for the military, but Person A pays double for it then Person B. You talk about fair, but what you saying is not fair.

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17-09-2012, 09:03 AM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2012 11:13 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 07:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Your argument is that the government gave itself permission to steal from me, therefore if I complain, I'm a baby. And furthermore, because the people before me haven't overturned the governments decision on the matter that it isn't worth complaining about. I guess in 1800, slavery was okay because not enough people complained about it yet.

No, my argument is that citizens elect their representatives. Ultimately, they were responsible for the introduction of income tax. Additionally, continue to use the word "steal", it is only so in your mind.

Yes, I am glad you finally understand ethics. What is acceptable to the majority of society is ethically correct until social evolution dictates otherwise. For instance, I personally believe internet piracy is different from theft. But, I don't do it because there are societal pressures on me not to do so.

So in short, yes, it was okay back then.

(16-09-2012 07:25 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  The truth is there are A LOT of people who are with me on this one. What we are doing is standing up. A LOT of people have gone to prison over it. The same with small government. About HALF of the country is with me on that one since large numbers of people being upset = morality for you.

Really? So what ass are you pulling these statistics out of?
As I have said, small government is a ridiculous notion that needs to be forgotten. Prove to me that it is applicable in modern society.

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