Does America Still Fear Communism?
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17-09-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 04:42 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 06:02 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Haha I'm probably wrong. I haven't watched politics in a long time.

Yeah, I would definitely look it up. In the U.S, especially in mainstream politics, there is no such thing as the far Left. There's the far Right, and then the slightly less Right.

This is the reality of the current effective/mainstream politics (effective in that far left individuals are essentially ignored, but still exist). The center has moved to the right, so that what was once center-left is now "far left liberal socialism"... and in reality these folks are not socialists, they are centrist democrats or independents. The center-shift seems to continue inexorably toward the right... but I have hope that people will continue to see more of the bullshit that is the republican party sham today. It is not a fiscal party any longer, it is a party held by religious social conservatives where fiscal concerns are a platform used to gain votes and nothing more. The agenda first and foremost on the right today is social reversion. Take a look at Virginia today, where the republicans are in control and you will see what the aim of the party is now (as opposed to 20-25 years ago where fiscal concern was a higher priority).

So to the original post, I think that one of the methods used to conform people and keep them on the lead is "fear". Keep people so afraid of moving toward the left that they move to the right. The fear of socialism is born from the fear of communism- the ultimate far left. While we can measure a person's political/social standing on a 2D graph, it's easier to cast it as a 1D line for the purpose of casting fear. That way, any step that isn't further right is a step to the left, and therefore a step towards socialism and ultimately the evil of communism. Since we have moved so far right and communism isn't really a concern for the US at present- but socialism fits neatly on that 1 dimensional line in between us and communism, and can easily be used as the new boogy-man. Of course this is all my own conjecture, but this is what the US political status looks like to me. Socialism is the new communism. Most people at the Tea Party rallies of 2009-2010 railing loudly against socialism couldn't tell you what it means. But they hated Obamacare, they know that much.

So, as others have said, it's the term "socialism" today that is used as the weapon of fear. It's thrown about as a synonym of communism, or a sure sign of our imminent transition to communism.

Most people you encounter in the US probably either don't know that you have socialized health care (and that it works pretty well from what I've heard). Personally I wish we went so far as socialized health care.
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17-09-2012, 03:58 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(11-09-2012 03:33 PM)TheDoctorPhil Wrote:  Air Force Instruction 1-1

3.4.2. Prohibitions on Wear of Uniform. Air Force members will not wear any uniform
combination or any uniform items in the following situations:

3.4.2.1. When attending a meeting of, or sponsored by, an organization, association,
movement, or group that: the Attorney General of the United States has named as
totalitarian, fascist, communist, or subversive; advocates or approves acts of force or
violence to deny others their rights under the United States Constitution; or seeks to
change the United States government by unconstitutional means.

I know it's just the AF but yes, America is still afraid.
Wow I didn't know that. Good find.

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Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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17-09-2012, 09:53 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
The communist (and I know several philosophers who are and am friends with) basically never admit their official position. Once they say, "As a communist, let me tell you why capitalism is bad", No one listens. So, they hide this fact.

Even Marx admitted that for communism to work human nature would have to be fundamentally changed.

Most youngsters fain at Marxism as they think they are discovering some incredible truth about fixing injustice. Soon they start to see that modern Marxism is just complaining about capitalism, without a real alternative solution.

Capitalism is like democracy. It's the worse system except all the rest.

There is no getting around the fact that communism requires the forfeiture of all personal freedoms and wants. That's not going to happen. People will die for their freedom.

When China went communist (1949) they "liquidated" 800,000 people who they believed would not accept the system. Them they put collectivism to work and organized the farms. Untold millions starved to death because of the inverse incentive to "not produce". Today the Chinese government states that the number one factor for them growing their economy is "private ownership of the means of production". Basically China is no longer a communist country. Not a democracy, but not interested in Marxist ideas of economic systems.

It is time for the Marxists to grow up and see the world for what it is. Communism is sold to the poor as a way to take from the rich. The ones in charge just become the new tyrants. The poor are still screwed, but now the economy produces less excess and they are worse off than before.

For those of you who have bought into the idea that capitalism is the root of all evil, you must weigh the systems like an analyst. The best system by far for humanity has been "free markets" even with its faults.

Marxists describe capitalists as Monopolists and use economic models of monopolies as an example main stream capitalism. Monopolies are illegal. The "natural monopolies" we regulate through government control.

Marxists describe capitalism as "laissez faire", anything goes. Not true. Antitrust laws have been around sense 1890 to regulate markets to make the system more fair. Too many details to mention, but take some time to truly understand the system we have in place now.

Communism is not just a scare, it's a non-starter. Not because big corp. pays off congress, but because 50% of the bottom 25% of income earners move out of the bottom with in 10 years, according to the US Commerce department. 97% of millionaires are self made and the average millionaire has been there an average of 13 years. We have a very organic system that is more fair than most give it credit for.

A black guy with a Muslim sounding name could never be president and be worth 11 million dollars from 2 book deals. Never happen in the US. Never. The system is just not fair.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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17-09-2012, 09:54 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2012 09:58 PM by Thomas.)
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
.....delete me

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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18-09-2012, 11:43 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
I can still remember when the US landing cards all had the question "Are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"

Still wonder if anyone ever actually wrote yes

The secret to a happy life is lowering your expectations to the point where they are already met
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19-09-2012, 04:55 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(17-09-2012 09:53 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Even Marx admitted that for communism to work human nature would have to be fundamentally changed.
That's right, real communism required all the powerful people to step away from the power, to dismantle leadership, police, army, money and prisons.
It was a three-step program, first working class taking over violently (dictature of the proletariate) and put all the rich and intelligent people to building bridges and mining coal manually. (that in itself should be a warning sign) Then there were the development 5-year plans to build up the economy. Finally they expected the true communism where everyone enjoy the wealth equally and need only work a couple hours a day.
They pulled off the first step, but the second went wrong, centrally controlled economy is very ineffective, specially with all the intelligent people locked up or assigned to an idiotic work. But it felt very good for the party leaders to be in control, so there were so many 5-year plans that they never actually got to the step 3.

The communism is an entirely possible idea, but the step 1 is wrong. It can never work based on violence or dictature of anyone. There was kind of a communism in the famous Tomaash Batya (that's how it's pronounced) shoe factory. Bata created a voluntary communist system for his workers and it was very ingenious, transparent, egalitarian and humane. (he built schools and houses for employees, etc) He even had his office in an elevator so he could be available on every floor and the office had glass walls, so all employees saw him present and working.
Tomas Bata was of course a capitalist and he travelled to USA to meet Henry Ford and learn the craft.
It all jibes with my ideas how large business must have a social purpose. Having a large business and no social program alongside with it is immoral and does not work in long term, it's a waste of human resources. I admire Tomas Bata and also companies like Google, wich really take care of the employees.

The truth is, no idea is self-sufficient. Capitalism without socialism is immoral, socialism without capitalism is bankrupt. Capitalism is the engine, socialism is the car for passengers (us).
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19-09-2012, 08:33 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(19-09-2012 04:55 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The truth is, no idea is self-sufficient. Capitalism without socialism is immoral, socialism without capitalism is bankrupt. Capitalism is the engine, socialism is the car for passengers (us).

Well-said, I agree with you, especially at this part.
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19-09-2012, 08:51 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(19-09-2012 08:33 AM)kineo Wrote:  
(19-09-2012 04:55 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The truth is, no idea is self-sufficient. Capitalism without socialism is immoral, socialism without capitalism is bankrupt. Capitalism is the engine, socialism is the car for passengers (us).

Well-said, I agree with you, especially at this part.

That makes one of us. It is true that there will never be a true practice of either, but Capitalism, immoral? No

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19-09-2012, 09:20 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(16-09-2012 09:28 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  As for this statement

Quote:All of the things taxes pay for could easily be paid for through taxes other than income taxes.

Take my above example of the 100people country and the $1000 military bill.

If we were to increase GST on say food to pay for the military then it wouldn't be fair.

Person A in this country could be a male living on his own.
Person B in this country could be a female living on her own.

Males typically eat more food. So say Person A spends $20 a week on food (say $10 in GST tax)
Where as Person B spends $10 ($5 in gst) on food.

Both Person A and B receive the same amount of 'security' from paying for the military, but Person A pays double for it then Person B. You talk about fair, but what you saying is not fair.

I'm to lazy to through all the reasons why I think you are wrong, but again, my reason is ideological. If you don't give your consent to give your money, it is theft, coercion, and I would argue a form of slavery.

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19-09-2012, 10:39 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(19-09-2012 09:20 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 09:28 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  As for this statement


Take my above example of the 100people country and the $1000 military bill.

If we were to increase GST on say food to pay for the military then it wouldn't be fair.

Person A in this country could be a male living on his own.
Person B in this country could be a female living on her own.

Males typically eat more food. So say Person A spends $20 a week on food (say $10 in GST tax)
Where as Person B spends $10 ($5 in gst) on food.

Both Person A and B receive the same amount of 'security' from paying for the military, but Person A pays double for it then Person B. You talk about fair, but what you saying is not fair.

I'm to lazy to through all the reasons why I think you are wrong, but again, my reason is ideological. If you don't give your consent to give your money, it is theft, coercion, and I would argue a form of slavery.

You are giving your consent though, what don't you get about that? When you buy something, you're giving consent to pay tax on that item. When you get employed and sign a contract of some sort with your employer, you have given your consent to be taxed. When you buy property, you're giving your consent via the arrangements made.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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