Does America Still Fear Communism?
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19-09-2012, 10:55 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(19-09-2012 10:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(19-09-2012 09:20 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I'm to lazy to through all the reasons why I think you are wrong, but again, my reason is ideological. If you don't give your consent to give your money, it is theft, coercion, and I would argue a form of slavery.

You are giving your consent though, what don't you get about that? When you buy something, you're giving consent to pay tax on that item. When you get employed and sign a contract of some sort with your employer, you have given your consent to be taxed. When you buy property, you're giving your consent via the arrangements made.

That is why I am okay with that kind of tax.

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20-09-2012, 05:33 AM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2012 05:47 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(19-09-2012 08:51 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(19-09-2012 08:33 AM)kineo Wrote:  Well-said, I agree with you, especially at this part.
That makes one of us. It is true that there will never be a true practice of either, but Capitalism, immoral? No
A pure capitalism without social functions certainly is immoral, as far as we and the planet are concerned. We are humans and we natively run on socialism. Capitalism exists only to supplement socialism, it got started because people needed to eat regularly, which is a social need.
People's needs must be the guideline of capitalism. Increasing production way more than we need (shelves useless stuff in supermarket), and distributing the production not by people's needs but by their money (very unevenly distributed), that is immoral in regard to people and the environment. It is the opposite extreme of what Communists did, they had a central committee to arbitrarily decide about production and import, which resulted in shortages and wrong products on the market. Again, they did not follow the real people's needs.


Now I'm about to reveal something of my goals and fundamental philosophy, I hope it will be comprehensible.
Maybe you have to experience it in order to understand it.

It's about having our needs met and not being distracted what we don't need or want. (that's why I don't miss watching TV, too much content I can't choose) I believe we all have a little bit of genius or talent inside and we need some elbow room and simplicity to manifest that, some freedom from lowly distractions like menial labour and shopping. We developed many technologic and social inventions that save us from guarding our house, growing our food, weaving our clothes and freed us for greater things, but we still need to earn our money and pay our bills. (which often do not serve those who actually produce our food and clothes)
I truly can sense there is a higher, better and more productive way how to live, how to be deeply engaged in life by a capacity of focused awareness, how to fill every day with meaningful and useful things, how to be immersed in them without a sense of time like a child in wonder of the play or a genius artist or scientist in the process of inspirative creation. For everyone or most of humanity. So there must be a way to simplify away all this crap that keeps us distracted, money, paperwork, economy, formalities and shit. It's all like the guts inside, as long as they work well, we don't need to know about them. Our current society is all about the guts of society, not about the brain. The politics of today is not the brain, except the primitive reptile brain that so tediously directs the menial processes of economy and digestion that should be made automatic and subconscious long ago.
As I said, there is a whole new level of consciousness, a different kind of livingness on which we can operate much better in every way, but our current society does not allow us to keep it, not for long anyway. It requires some capability of deep concentration, which is shattered in us since childhood by TV commercials. I do experience it quite frequently (often when I write posts on this forum Smile ) but I can not keep it in daily life and common work or social interaction. But if I could, well, let's say all the geniuses and influential people are much closer to this goal than I am. I just get a taste of it in the evening, so I know what is it like.
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20-09-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(19-09-2012 09:20 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I'm to lazy to through all the reasons why I think you are wrong, but again, my reason is ideological. If you don't give your consent to give your money, it is theft, coercion, and I would argue a form of slavery.

Wow, you won't even defend your view? What's more, if your beliefs are not practical, they do not matter. It is equivalent to fighting for communism, while knowing it could not at all be self-sustained.

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20-09-2012, 08:58 AM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(17-09-2012 09:53 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The communist (and I know several philosophers who are and am friends with) basically never admit their official position. Once they say, "As a communist, let me tell you why capitalism is bad", No one listens. So, they hide this fact.

Even Marx admitted that for communism to work human nature would have to be fundamentally changed.

Most youngsters fain at Marxism as they think they are discovering some incredible truth about fixing injustice. Soon they start to see that modern Marxism is just complaining about capitalism, without a real alternative solution.

Capitalism is like democracy. It's the worse system except all the rest.

There is no getting around the fact that communism requires the forfeiture of all personal freedoms and wants. That's not going to happen. People will die for their freedom.

When China went communist (1949) they "liquidated" 800,000 people who they believed would not accept the system. Them they put collectivism to work and organized the farms. Untold millions starved to death because of the inverse incentive to "not produce". Today the Chinese government states that the number one factor for them growing their economy is "private ownership of the means of production". Basically China is no longer a communist country. Not a democracy, but not interested in Marxist ideas of economic systems.

It is time for the Marxists to grow up and see the world for what it is. Communism is sold to the poor as a way to take from the rich. The ones in charge just become the new tyrants. The poor are still screwed, but now the economy produces less excess and they are worse off than before.

For those of you who have bought into the idea that capitalism is the root of all evil, you must weigh the systems like an analyst. The best system by far for humanity has been "free markets" even with its faults.

Marxists describe capitalists as Monopolists and use economic models of monopolies as an example main stream capitalism. Monopolies are illegal. The "natural monopolies" we regulate through government control.

Marxists describe capitalism as "laissez faire", anything goes. Not true. Antitrust laws have been around sense 1890 to regulate markets to make the system more fair. Too many details to mention, but take some time to truly understand the system we have in place now.

Communism is not just a scare, it's a non-starter. Not because big corp. pays off congress, but because 50% of the bottom 25% of income earners move out of the bottom with in 10 years, according to the US Commerce department. 97% of millionaires are self made and the average millionaire has been there an average of 13 years. We have a very organic system that is more fair than most give it credit for.

A black guy with a Muslim sounding name could never be president and be worth 11 million dollars from 2 book deals. Never happen in the US. Never. The system is just not fair.

Spot on, well said. +10 cookies for you. Couldn't agree more.

Quote:I'm to lazy to through all the reasons why I think you are wrong, but again, my reason is ideological. If you don't give your consent to give your money, it is theft, coercion, and I would argue a form of slavery.

Dude, you're so wrong. I just told you why you are wrong, I even explained why it is fairer to have income tax as opposed to not having income tax.
So please, I would love to here allllll these reasons why I'm wrong because so far, no I'm not.

Quote:A pure capitalism without social functions certainly is immoral, as far as we and the planet are concerned. We are humans and we natively run on socialism. Capitalism exists only to supplement socialism, it got started because people needed to eat regularly, which is a social need.

This is why I am economically right and socially left. Capitalism is an economic (well it can be social too, but I think it's primary economic) system. Socialism is a social system. The social system being things like Health, Education, Security etc..

I think people need to distinguish between the two.

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20-09-2012, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2012 02:18 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 08:58 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I think people need to distinguish between the two.

The issue becomes how to keep a capitalist economy from breaching basic rights. Preventive measures were brought into place to prevent corporate monopoly in the past, but with increased government corruption (due to power-hungry companies), economic problems that we faced in the early twentieth century are far too similar to the ones we're fighting against today.

The problem I have directly with the fundamentals of capitalism is that there is no fail-safe for the inevitable bust that comes with it. It is guaranteed to grow exponentially, and immediately afterwards, crash back down. A reformed capitalism is in order. A form of social capitalism, if a sort of oxymoron is acceptable. The philosophy also relies on the basic idea that everyone has equal opportunity, when that is simply not the case. Yet whenever someone does not have the opportunity, whether it be from poverty, lack of education, corporate abuse, they are wrongfully labeled as "lazy".

Capitalism does not work without the intervention of socialism. The entire reason the U.S managed to avoid a communist revolution was by allowing socialist systems into capitalism. Worker and labor unions, as an example.

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20-09-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
Good post Logica, I agree with you there. I don't hate either capitalism nor socialism but I think a measure of both are needed in today's less than ideal world in order to strike a balance between corporate abuse and economic collapse.
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20-09-2012, 02:11 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 02:02 PM)kineo Wrote:  Good post Logica, I agree with you there. I don't hate either capitalism nor socialism but I think a measure of both are needed in today's less than ideal world in order to strike a balance between corporate abuse and economic collapse.

History shows quite clearly that unrestricted capitalism and pure socialism are both disastrous.

Capitalism seems to work better than socialism as it caters to the selfish part of human nature, while socialism seems nicer.

Capitalism properly restrained has been successful in the west. What we generally argue about is the definition of "properly restrained".

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20-09-2012, 02:25 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
TL;DR

What's the answer? I need to know if I'm supposed to still fear Communism or not. Shy

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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20-09-2012, 04:52 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
(20-09-2012 02:25 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  TL;DR

What's the answer? I need to know if I'm supposed to still fear Communism or not. Shy

Yes, it's a horrible system.

Quote: A form of social capitalism

While I agree that a form of "social capitalism" is needed, I don't see how that would mitigate financial rise and falls.
Take the most recent for example, you could have been the most socialist country in the world but at the end of the day it was banks and social greed that lead to shit storm. Banks should have known better and people should have known better (then to take out like 20 fucking mortgages on minimum wage, who the fuck does that!).

It's just part of capitalism that there is rise and falls in markets and no amount of socialism will stop that. It's probably good for the market too actually, it forces markets to being more efficient in times of a trough.

What you gotta remember is that we are still pretty early in this age we live in.
1800's there was very little global trade, America and pretty much all countries, made everything themselves. Then as technology grew (transportation in particular) so did trade. I mean I can watch the news and see my Prime Minister getting a free trade agreement with China (first in the world I might add) which shows how early along we are.
So what I'm getting at is there is of course going to be kinks in the road. Such as this recent bank shit that went down, that has now been regulated and will not happen again. Take the dotcom bubble, people have learned from that, they now want assets and such as guarantee for their money or they invest else ware.

Capitalism can only go up as we learn from our mistakes.

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20-09-2012, 05:01 PM
RE: Does America Still Fear Communism?
There is a clear distinction missing in the argument:
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. Socialism is the public (government control) of the means of production.

It is better to say that we have controls (laws such as anti-trust) to keep the game working while getting the most from the game.
Like sports. We have rules and officials, but we keep score and there are winners and loosers. If sports were socialistic, no score, no winners or loosers, just "activity" as dictated by the officials. No incentive to acheive anything more than showing up because you were told to, and no one in the stands.
I hear the term "greedy corporate execs", but not "greedy government officials". They exist too, and in greater numbers that you may believe. Socialism is turning the means of production over to tyrants who will tells us what is best for us.

Communism has failed not just becasue the systems is inefficient, though it is, but more so becuase the tyrants refused to listen to what the people wanted. Jeans and Rock -n- Roll took down eastern European communist countries. They refused to make jeans. The CIA ran black markets to put some jeans into the economy just to stoke the fire. When the rockers spoke out they got 20 year plus prison sentences.

Freedom is what people want. They will trade some of it for goodies for a while, but at a point it will fail. You can't keep increasing the goodies to keep the masses satisfied. Infinite want and limited resources. People accept their limits, but don't expect the "all powerful" government to ever run out of candy. When it does, Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. Watch in horror as the US stops handing out the candy. It aon't going to be pretty.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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