Does ISIS have a death wish?
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14-11-2015, 02:15 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
ISIS is simply the latest flavor of the month in a revolutionary movement that dates back to the end of WW2. The objective of that movement is to unite the Muslim world under one banner by using a common cultural marker which happen to be the centerpiece of the cultural identity of all those different country, cultures and ethnic group: their common religion. By uniting the Muslim world under a single faith, with a single symbolic (or not so symbolic) leader at its head, they hope to present a power great enough to resist, compete and potentially threaten the Western world and the old Communist bloc. Fighting against the Western world and the old communist block is the very reason they exist. It's what they are selling: rebellion against an autocratic foreign power that manipulated them, kill them and impoverished them for decades. That's the idea behind modern Islamism. That's also why Islamism is violent toward other Muslim. You need to crush inner dissention to present a stronger and more united image. Imperialism, patriotism, racism, fundamentalism and a spirit of rebellion are the driving force of this movement. Bombs have no effect on such mentality.

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14-11-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
(14-11-2015 01:13 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  


LMAO at 6:41. "And there's the ISIS Navy", just a couple dudes in a motorboat.

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14-11-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
(14-11-2015 02:02 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 01:44 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  You know, they could just be batshit crazy murderers.

They are, and that trait of theirs is going to end up being a significant obstacle to their overarching goals, thankfully.

Except that they were only ever a puppet regime of Erdogan who allowed them to set up and get the shit kicked out of them so that it would leave him as the "true heir" to the Caliphate...we need him...because look at the alternative. It is cynical, exploitative and utterly Turkish. Turkey now is governed by a truly sad, sick, twisted individual who escapes notice because Europe is trying to cozy up to Turkey. It's become a "European nightmare". It won't work though, because Turkey just elected a new government run by someone who resembles Elmer Fudd as Prime Minister and he now has all the power and Erdogan did not get enough votes to change the constitution to make himself a dictator for life. It all went very wrong and this is the result.

It's Ottoman revanchism gone horribly wrong.
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14-11-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
(14-11-2015 12:41 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  I'm not claiming to be an expert on extremist movements, but I do know that what separates ISIS from the others in the Middle East right now is the scope of their political aspirations. They have "state" in the title, ISIS is yearning to create an organized state with an administrative leader, the caliphate, and want him to assert influence on Muslims across the globe.

So what exactly gave ISIS the bright idea to start antagonizing militarily superior nations? If you're Al-Qaida, that's one thing, antagonizing miltarily superior nations in the name of Islam seemed to be their only purpose so acting as a loose bundle of networked cells rather than an organized force allowed them to piddle around without getting completely eradicated by the opposition (although they are definitely weakened, when was the last Al-Qaida did something big?)

But ISIS is operating differently, they aren't just a loose network of insurgent cells, there is actual organization, and political leaders. That's much more concrete targets to neutralize in the handbook of war. Antagonizing miltarily superior nations so they come fuck up your shit is not a particularly efficient means of achieving statehood. Their caliphate would be captured or executed and their influence and control over regions would be reduced to almost naught. It's kind of difficult to crystallize your statehood when you've been driven into the caves.

How exactly is ISIS expecting these strings of attacks on foreign soil to actually work out in their favor? It looks more like a good invitation to get your statehood plans steamrolled over.

ISIS calls itself a state to legitimise itself in the eyes Muslims (you also can't be a caliphate without being a state), and given their primary objective is the secure territory in the M.E. for their caliphate, naturally they have adopted a system that the State needs to function; AQ and ISIS are completely different beasts with specific purposes and they reflect that in their structures.

Anyway, what could ISIS be hoping to achieve by attacking Western nations? My bet is that they seek legitimacy in the eyes of the extremists around them. They are trying to prove themselves to be more capable, more powerful than than the extremists they are also engaged with to cow or convert them. If it worked it would stabilise their tentative grip on their territory by bolstering their numbers and weakening the strength and will of those opposed to them on the ground. If it doesn't work, they still are able to show that they have long reach while killing infidels in the process.

An alternate way of looking at it is thus:
It may be that pissing off the West is exactly their ultimate goal. ISIS is a fundamentalist organisation to its core and those involved reflect that, but because they are fundamentalists they are also apocalyptists; and the signal to the coming Day of Judgement is the defeat of 'Rome's armies' at the hands of the armies of Islam in a little Syrian shithole by the name Dabiq. They devoted considerable resources to taking the region (which is apparently pretty much just farmland) despite it having no real strategic value, probably in the hopes of using it for precisely the purpose laid out in the Qur'an.

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14-11-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
Interesting thought TS. I hadn't really put much thought to what their end goal is. I know that want to reestablish the caliphate and blah blah, but they can't be stupid enough to think that by attacking the West like this, they can set up shop in a static place and not expect a drone strike. Hell, if it were that easy. Kowtow until they build a head building then flatten it when they are all inside. I wonder what their end game really is.

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14-11-2015, 02:49 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2015 02:53 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
http://shoebat.com/2014/08/13/evidence-m...cruitment/

"But Erdogan’s support of the ISIS is easy to explain, even though the ISIS declared a caliphate in southern Turkey which seems as a no threat to Erdogan. He is silent because he sees an opportunity since Turkey needs the ISIS to dismantle nationalistic governments then to later consume them to create its Sunni Axis and its Ottoman dream.

Turkey’s master plan is to eventually sacrifice someone in its little ISIS pawn in order to declare itself as the supreme Caliphate taking all under its neo-Ottoman umbrella which will also include an alliance with Iran. Turkey’s brilliant plan is that it needs the ISIS to dismantle the Levant while using wealthy Arabs who support ISIS to aid the Caliphate cause while using the very ISIS to even turn on the Arabs themselves. Turkey then will execute a double-whammy plan using its non-Wahhabist Sufi version of Islam that is neutral towards Shiite Iran, to unite both Sunni and Shiite forces to finally bring about peace amongst Muslims in the region and by this self-fulfilling the Islamic view that a Mahdi will come and bring 7 years of peace after 7 years of turmoil.

Only Turkey has such a model and a major regional presence with significant global standing and respect. The Iraqi model of the Caliphate has set the stage for a Caliphate competition stemming from Turkey. Erdogan wants the entire Middle East. Why else would Erdogan be making statements against Egypt objecting to the Egyptian dismantling of the Muslim Brotherhood?"
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14-11-2015, 02:56 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
(14-11-2015 02:15 PM)epronovost Wrote:  ISIS is simply the latest flavor of the month in a revolutionary movement that dates back to the end of WW2. The objective of that movement is to unite the Muslim world under one banner by using a common cultural marker which happen to be the centerpiece of the cultural identity of all those different country, cultures and ethnic group: their common religion. By uniting the Muslim world under a single faith, with a single symbolic (or not so symbolic) leader at its head, they hope to present a power great enough to resist, compete and potentially threaten the Western world and the old Communist bloc. Fighting against the Western world and the old communist block is the very reason they exist. It's what they are selling: rebellion against an autocratic foreign power that manipulated them, kill them and impoverished them for decades. That's the idea behind modern Islamism. That's also why Islamism is violent toward other Muslim. You need to crush inner dissention to present a stronger and more united image. Imperialism, patriotism, racism, fundamentalism and a spirit of rebellion are the driving force of this movement. Bombs have no effect on such mentality.

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Education would be a more humane way to eradicate that mentality, but a lot of brains will need to be killed to even have an opportunity to educate.

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14-11-2015, 04:38 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
(14-11-2015 02:15 PM)epronovost Wrote:  ISIS is simply the latest flavor of the month in a revolutionary movement that dates back to the end of WW2. The objective of that movement is to unite the Muslim world under one banner by using a common cultural marker which happen to be the centerpiece of the cultural identity of all those different country, cultures and ethnic group: their common religion. By uniting the Muslim world under a single faith, with a single symbolic (or not so symbolic) leader at its head, they hope to present a power great enough to resist, compete and potentially threaten the Western world and the old Communist bloc. Fighting against the Western world and the old communist block is the very reason they exist. It's what they are selling: rebellion against an autocratic foreign power that manipulated them, kill them and impoverished them for decades. That's the idea behind modern Islamism. That's also why Islamism is violent toward other Muslim. You need to crush inner dissention to present a stronger and more united image. Imperialism, patriotism, racism, fundamentalism and a spirit of rebellion are the driving force of this movement. Bombs have no effect on such mentality.

I see what you are saying here, except ISIS is not particularly popular with anybody in the Muslim world other than its own members. They've been given strong condemnations across the board and other Muslim extremist groups have stated either a lack of desire or an inability to work with them either. ISIS is certainly not going to be the banner all Muslims want to ride under.

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14-11-2015, 05:04 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
Sincere question: I see no citations whatsoever here. Where is everyone getting their information about Erdogan's ambitions to become caliph?

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14-11-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: Does ISIS have a death wish?
(14-11-2015 05:04 PM)claywise Wrote:  Sincere question: I see no citations whatsoever here. Where is everyone getting their information about Erdogan's ambitions to become caliph?

That's not "everyone". That's deltabravo.

He's... special like that.

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