Does Islam need a reformation?
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05-09-2014, 03:39 AM
Does Islam need a reformation?
I have been reading a bit about Islam and am amazed that thre is not more of a movement towards reforming it. I actually registered with an American Muslim website to see what was going on and found some videos where a guy was going on about how Islam is in a really big mess. He was saying this because Muslims know about the rites and ceremonies they are supposed to follow but don't know about more important dictates of the religion, like not beheading people. They also don't prioritize principles and rites within the religion.

I found this site, for instance, http://www.patheos.com/Library/Islam/Rit...onies.html which describes Islamic rites as follows:

In addition to the Five Pillars of Islam, a number of further religious practices regulate the lives of Muslims and bring meaning to the most important of life's transitions

Pretty bold stuff! So, what does it say these really, really important things are?

Well....

"The Quran contains prohibitions against the consumption of pork and wine."

"Smoking is similarly prohibited. Charging exorbitant interest on loans"

"Male circumcision is an important religious duty in Islam and required by believers to perform on their newborn sons. There is no single explanation for the origins of this practice. It may have been adopted from the Jewish practice."

"he controversial practice of female circumcision that is present in many parts of the world does not have any religious authority as does male circumcision. Defenders of the practice do not cite religious evidence that it is required in Islam."

And we can't forget the Fitrah which are the shaving of the pubes, underarms, trimming of the moustache, and nail trimming. Oh, and there is washing yer feet.

These things raise important issues in Islam like this on a forum I found:

!5123: Defining the extent of the pubic hair (al-‘aanah)
As Muslims we are required to shave pubic hair.
For a man, is this all the hair between his navel and his knees ? (i.e. all hair on the lower abdomen and thighs)
Praise be to Allah."

And, of course, Muslims have a high regard for women and have taken steps against male chauvenism...great:

"It is to the credit of Islam that it modified and reformed the system in existence at the time. Firstly, of all, Islam put a limit to the numbers of wives that a person can have at one time — maximum of four wives at one time."

But let us not forget the central tenets of this grrreat relisgion, the Five Pillars which give followers a lot of guidance on how to live their lives, treat other people...they are the foundation of Islamic life and you can tell that just from reading them:

"Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
Establishment of the daily prayers;
Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
Self-purification through fasting; and
The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able."

Hmmm.....

What I find most perplexing is that we in the West have pretty much abandoned relgion, outside the US bible belt. Yet, we now feel the need to give this type of stff equal treatment when its adherents can't even see how trivial most of this is. It's an outdated religion, much of which comes from pre-Muslim Arabic traditions designed to keep a person clean before they had soap and plumbing.
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05-09-2014, 03:46 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
Yabut... how do go about reforming something that is the final word of god?

Rolleyes

Good luck with that!

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05-09-2014, 04:34 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
Asking if any religion needs to be reformed is like asking if Harry Potter needs less magic in it.

The governments of the East certainly need their own Age of Enlightenment and their own Thomas Paine, but there is not one religion on the face of the planet that can be reformed. What makes society civil isn't religion, but our evolutionary trait as a species of cooperation and compassion. Religion is the excuse to make a group to maximize power and access to resources.

Christianity did not become civil in the west because of religion, it became civil because people got tired of the tribal barbarity done in it's name.

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05-09-2014, 04:34 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
I don't think Islam needs a Reformation; technically it had it's version of the Reformation (as in a schism separated one major group into two) before it was even began as a religion proper (if the telling by Christopher Hitchens is to be believed).

What it needs is an Enlightenment.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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05-09-2014, 04:42 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
UGGGGGGG, please everyone, get the bigger picture.

NO NO NO NO! NO religion in our species history, dead or new, polytheistic or monotheistic, can be reformed. The move to more civility is not because of religion, but our evolutionary trait of cooperation of compassion IN SPITE OF RELIGION.

Again, Christianity for example, became civil in spite of religion. Religion ALL RELIGIONS are comic book reflections of our desire to be the alpha male. Our species traits of compassion can override our group mindset of domination. WE not religion, WE HUMANS change things, not our religions or books.

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05-09-2014, 05:18 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(05-09-2014 04:42 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  UGGGGGGG, please everyone, get the bigger picture.

NO NO NO NO! NO religion in our species history, dead or new, polytheistic or monotheistic, can be reformed. The move to more civility is not because of religion, but our evolutionary trait of cooperation of compassion IN SPITE OF RELIGION.

Again, Christianity for example, became civil in spite of religion. Religion ALL RELIGIONS are comic book reflections of our desire to be the alpha male. Our species traits of compassion can override our group mindset of domination. WE not religion, WE HUMANS change things, not our religions or books.



You convey reformation with becoming civil... that's not a direct connection.

Christianity has had it's reformations over time, and that's not what made it civil, in fact, the reformations were mainly inspired in contrast to the growing knowledge that proved previous interpretations of the Bible to be seen as ineffective for the people. All the so called Great Awakening movements in American Christianity would be considered reformations, but they're merely reactionary movements.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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05-09-2014, 05:50 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
Ayaan Hirsi Ali think that Islam will only coexist if there is a reformation, even though, there can't be a reformation. I think that there can but it's highly unlikely. There are many cases where people of religious significance have attempted to state something at a debate or something else in Pakistan etc and has later been assassinated because it implied reformation. Islam, unlike Catholicism, does not have figurehead (mainly because of the schism earlier discussed) and so it is even more unlikely to reform.

I hope Ayaan Hirsi Ali is wrong and that without any more violence Islam can fit in with secular societies and coexist with other walks of life. However I don't think that this will happen. It seems to me that there will be a global war of the Dhimmi vs Islam. One cannot survive while the other does.

I also hold the position that religions can't be reformed unless by force, especially because they are the supposed final word of god. This leaves the followers of that religion with the three positions:
1. God is immoral and so they have to alter his word.
2. Their view of god is not compatible with morals so god does not exist.
3. God can be immoral if he wants because he is god and so we must follow his word without thought.. (this one might not be a position for a Muslim because I've witnessed many even imply that pedophilia is not immoral, and neither is murder if the person is a Dhimmi).


Islam is a disease.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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05-09-2014, 06:31 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
No, Islam needs to stop existing, along with every other religion on the planet.

(05-09-2014 03:39 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  And, of course, Muslims have a high regard for women and have taken steps against male chauvenism...great:

"It is to the credit of Islam that it modified and reformed the system in existence at the time. Firstly, of all, Islam put a limit to the numbers of wives that a person can have at one time — maximum of four wives at one time."

Laugh out load This is like something straight from a satire.

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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05-09-2014, 06:53 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(05-09-2014 05:18 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 04:42 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  UGGGGGGG, please everyone, get the bigger picture.

NO NO NO NO! NO religion in our species history, dead or new, polytheistic or monotheistic, can be reformed. The move to more civility is not because of religion, but our evolutionary trait of cooperation of compassion IN SPITE OF RELIGION.

Again, Christianity for example, became civil in spite of religion. Religion ALL RELIGIONS are comic book reflections of our desire to be the alpha male. Our species traits of compassion can override our group mindset of domination. WE not religion, WE HUMANS change things, not our religions or books.



You convey reformation with becoming civil... that's not a direct connection.

Christianity has had it's reformations over time, and that's not what made it civil, in fact, the reformations were mainly inspired in contrast to the growing knowledge that proved previous interpretations of the Bible to be seen as ineffective for the people. All the so called Great Awakening movements in American Christianity would be considered reformations, but they're merely reactionary movements.

Watering down religion is not done because of religion. We go from barbaric to civil because our evolutionary empathy, not because of bullshit myth and invisible sky heros.

Do you want our species to grow up or do you want our species stuck in Santa for adults?

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05-09-2014, 07:39 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(05-09-2014 03:46 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Yabut... how do go about reforming something that is the final word of god?

They need an Italian angel to guide an unsuspecting prophet to find some golden tablets and special reading stones buried in Saudi Arabia. These tablets will contain a new covenant between Allah and his people. The new covenant will remove much of the twatshittery from the religion.

Then, there can be another schism in Islam, and we can have even more sectarian violence.
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