Does Islam need a reformation?
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05-09-2014, 10:51 PM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(05-09-2014 04:24 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Reltzik, I'm not very good at writing my thoughts and feelings down even though I should be, as English is my first language and I'm attending university. However, everything you have said is a perfect reflection on how I feel towards Islam.

Furthermore, how would you deal with the situation then? I think that the only way to defeat Islam is to destroy it (Though I am against violence at any cost except the cost of more violence.)

I think that ISIS will take over the rest of Iraq and Syria. I've already read reports of them having internal power in Jordan and deals with the Jordanian king. Next will be Israel. Israel have nukes. This can not be allowed. Iran and Israel MUST co-operate in my opinion. The middle east has to solve itself, but if they do get hold of WMD's. Outside intervention is a must.

Hell, I'm no expert, but here's my 2c.

Personally, I think that ISIS will stall out, albeit after causing a lot of personal and perhaps a bit of geopolitical pain. They don't know how to play the long game. They pissed off too many people all at once, including most Muslims, including RADICAL Muslims, while they were still getting started, and it's coming back to bite them big time. Nor do they seem to know how to fix that, if their solution is murdering captured journalists on camera. Perhaps ISIS will survive continue on a model and severity similar to the (current) Taliban, essentially a slow-simmering regional rebellion/brigands. I doubt very much it will take an entire country, and if it does, it will have a hard time holding it, and if it does hold it it's more likely to burn and butcher it to the ground than turn it into anything that can project force effectively. And there's no way in hell that they're gonna take Israel. A grand alliance made up of pretty much every government in the ENTIRE ARAB WORLD tried that. It took all of six days for Israel to hand them their collective asses. It's been a while and warfare's changed a lot since then, but I don't think that the underlying disparity has changed. A paramilitary group that's working with scrounged weaponry and that's made its name knocking over targets in destabilized, demoralized, conflict-riven nations, and killing unarmed civilians, versus an opponent like that? Not a chance. It'd be like putting a juvenile delinquent mugger into a five-to-one pit fight versus a special forces team. ISIS is hurting a lot of people and destabilizing their region for now, but relative to the problem of radically conservative, violently Jihadist Islam at large ISIS is very much a short-term, small-potatoes problem.

So, what would be my solution to the larger issue?

Again, I'm no expert. My opinion isn't worth much, and I'd have crap chance of getting it implemented. But here it goes.

So how do we do this? First a direct intervention, conquer-and-control, pure neocon solution is out. Leave aside the moral element... well, don't, but you'll either agree with me on that or not (sounds like you will), and persuasion doesn't work well on that sort of thing. We'll either agree on that or not. But ignoring that... and ignoring the difficulty of getting enough of the international community not to recoil from such... direct action... doing this for only two Middle Eastern countries taxed America's military, and that of an international coalition, to the maximum. What's more, it didn't reduce the problem of violent, radical Islamism. It increased it, both by giving the radicals a rallying cry, and by radicalizing what would otherwise have been non-radical Muslims. At no point did the Western powers have a clear and viable plan for implementing a liberal democracy, and what gains they did make in this respect, remain shaky. Add to that how the definition of Jihad (well, Lesser Jihad) is defending Muslim lands from EXACTLY this sort of invasion, and, well, it has all the pacifying effect of chucking rocks at a hornet's nest. It's counterproductive.

So if the biggest sledgehammer on Earth won't work, what will?

Focus on what success looks like. Success does not look like a string of authoritarian governments we call allies because they're kinda-willing to work with us, and it does not look like a string of short-term fires that we keep pissing out. Success looks like a general population embracing... no, more than that, living deep in their bones... Enlightenment principles of religious tolerance and self-determination. From that, everything else will follow. It's not about someone like Seth Andrews having a conversation on air with a believer and shedding light on how the religion is nuts. It's not about theological debate. It's about making it possible for that conversation to take place at all.

In the short-term, minimize direct involvement in the region. Honor essential alliances and commitments but otherwise reduce our exposure. Quit flooding the place with weapons and oil money. (Yeah, I know, easier said than done.) Quit turning dictatorships into failed states. If we must go in after a particular threat, do so surgically, hitting just the targets needed. If 9/11 were to happen again, the target would be bin Ladin and his leadership, hit with a drone or a smart bomb. Not Afghanistan, not the Taliban, not even most of Al Qaeda. Just the keystones and linchpins. Don't fight a big enemy when the threat is small. Above all, avoid civilian casualties... they cause more problems in the long term than letting radical militants live. (Also, they suck, but some people don't care about that.) Remember that their elimination is not the goal. It is at most, in rare occasions, a step between here and the goal. Usually, it is a distraction from the goal, and often it undermines the goal. A general transformation of regional attitudes is the goal, NOT engaging militants. At the same time, increase intelligence-gathering... and I don't mean that bullshit CIA-overthrow type intelligence, either. I mean the goal is casting a wide net to learn as much as possible. Learn rather than act, that type of intelligence.

With the slow-play going, get down to spreading the ideas. Scholarships for students from the more moderate nations to study Humanities in Western universities... things that have them reading Jefferson, Gandhi, and Mandela rather than Newton, Faraday, or Darwin. Take an active role in helping them network with each other and assimilate partially in the university environment before sending them back home. In particular, focus on the children of the middle class. Well-off enough to afford a secondary education, but not rich enough to afford university on their own.

Go to moderate Muslim groups in the west... especially Muslim humanists... and broach the idea of outreach into the Middle East to spread the moderate message. Some of them will bite. Facilitate those efforts. Give them the tools they need to set up a region-wide network and recruit more of their kind to help. Remember, the goal isn't governmental overthrow, and it's not about spreading the ideas of Islam. It's about spreading ideas of moderation.

Try some charitable infrastructure-building, as well. Internet. Cel phone towers. Wifi networks. Satellite internet for remote villages. Lots of smart phones... not latest generation, but good enough to get internet. Facebook and Youtube are worth a hundred infantry divisions. The bonus of funding it is that we get to install it, which means we can deny the governments the sort of kill-switch that Egypt employed.

That's stage 1. Building up the base. Building up an interconnected population, swimming in the ideas of religious moderation and liberal democracy. There's more that can be done to further the process, once stage 1's done, but do just that much, and the dominoes will start to fall. People will focus less on the religious differences and more on the differences in class and privelege, less on Israel's abuses of Palestine and more on their own nation's abuses of them. They're already most of the way there. It won't take much more... and now that I think about it, most of this could be done privately, without Western governments driving it.

Like I said, no chance in hell of my getting any of this implemented, and I'm not an expert, so take it with a few thousand grains of salt. Still, that's my 2c.
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06-09-2014, 12:20 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(05-09-2014 10:51 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 04:24 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Reltzik, I'm not very good at writing my thoughts and feelings down even though I should be, as English is my first language and I'm attending university. However, everything you have said is a perfect reflection on how I feel towards Islam.

Furthermore, how would you deal with the situation then? I think that the only way to defeat Islam is to destroy it (Though I am against violence at any cost except the cost of more violence.)

I think that ISIS will take over the rest of Iraq and Syria. I've already read reports of them having internal power in Jordan and deals with the Jordanian king. Next will be Israel. Israel have nukes. This can not be allowed. Iran and Israel MUST co-operate in my opinion. The middle east has to solve itself, but if they do get hold of WMD's. Outside intervention is a must.

Hell, I'm no expert, but here's my 2c.

Personally, I think that ISIS will stall out, albeit after causing a lot of personal and perhaps a bit of geopolitical pain. They don't know how to play the long game. They pissed off too many people all at once, including most Muslims, including RADICAL Muslims, while they were still getting started, and it's coming back to bite them big time. Nor do they seem to know how to fix that, if their solution is murdering captured journalists on camera. Perhaps ISIS will survive continue on a model and severity similar to the (current) Taliban, essentially a slow-simmering regional rebellion/brigands. I doubt very much it will take an entire country, and if it does, it will have a hard time holding it, and if it does hold it it's more likely to burn and butcher it to the ground than turn it into anything that can project force effectively. And there's no way in hell that they're gonna take Israel. A grand alliance made up of pretty much every government in the ENTIRE ARAB WORLD tried that. It took all of six days for Israel to hand them their collective asses. It's been a while and warfare's changed a lot since then, but I don't think that the underlying disparity has changed. A paramilitary group that's working with scrounged weaponry and that's made its name knocking over targets in destabilized, demoralized, conflict-riven nations, and killing unarmed civilians, versus an opponent like that? Not a chance. It'd be like putting a juvenile delinquent mugger into a five-to-one pit fight versus a special forces team. ISIS is hurting a lot of people and destabilizing their region for now, but relative to the problem of radically conservative, violently Jihadist Islam at large ISIS is very much a short-term, small-potatoes problem.

So, what would be my solution to the larger issue?

Again, I'm no expert. My opinion isn't worth much, and I'd have crap chance of getting it implemented. But here it goes.

So how do we do this? First a direct intervention, conquer-and-control, pure neocon solution is out. Leave aside the moral element... well, don't, but you'll either agree with me on that or not (sounds like you will), and persuasion doesn't work well on that sort of thing. We'll either agree on that or not. But ignoring that... and ignoring the difficulty of getting enough of the international community not to recoil from such... direct action... doing this for only two Middle Eastern countries taxed America's military, and that of an international coalition, to the maximum. What's more, it didn't reduce the problem of violent, radical Islamism. It increased it, both by giving the radicals a rallying cry, and by radicalizing what would otherwise have been non-radical Muslims. At no point did the Western powers have a clear and viable plan for implementing a liberal democracy, and what gains they did make in this respect, remain shaky. Add to that how the definition of Jihad (well, Lesser Jihad) is defending Muslim lands from EXACTLY this sort of invasion, and, well, it has all the pacifying effect of chucking rocks at a hornet's nest. It's counterproductive.

So if the biggest sledgehammer on Earth won't work, what will?

Focus on what success looks like. Success does not look like a string of authoritarian governments we call allies because they're kinda-willing to work with us, and it does not look like a string of short-term fires that we keep pissing out. Success looks like a general population embracing... no, more than that, living deep in their bones... Enlightenment principles of religious tolerance and self-determination. From that, everything else will follow. It's not about someone like Seth Andrews having a conversation on air with a believer and shedding light on how the religion is nuts. It's not about theological debate. It's about making it possible for that conversation to take place at all.

In the short-term, minimize direct involvement in the region. Honor essential alliances and commitments but otherwise reduce our exposure. Quit flooding the place with weapons and oil money. (Yeah, I know, easier said than done.) Quit turning dictatorships into failed states. If we must go in after a particular threat, do so surgically, hitting just the targets needed. If 9/11 were to happen again, the target would be bin Ladin and his leadership, hit with a drone or a smart bomb. Not Afghanistan, not the Taliban, not even most of Al Qaeda. Just the keystones and linchpins. Don't fight a big enemy when the threat is small. Above all, avoid civilian casualties... they cause more problems in the long term than letting radical militants live. (Also, they suck, but some people don't care about that.) Remember that their elimination is not the goal. It is at most, in rare occasions, a step between here and the goal. Usually, it is a distraction from the goal, and often it undermines the goal. A general transformation of regional attitudes is the goal, NOT engaging militants. At the same time, increase intelligence-gathering... and I don't mean that bullshit CIA-overthrow type intelligence, either. I mean the goal is casting a wide net to learn as much as possible. Learn rather than act, that type of intelligence.

With the slow-play going, get down to spreading the ideas. Scholarships for students from the more moderate nations to study Humanities in Western universities... things that have them reading Jefferson, Gandhi, and Mandela rather than Newton, Faraday, or Darwin. Take an active role in helping them network with each other and assimilate partially in the university environment before sending them back home. In particular, focus on the children of the middle class. Well-off enough to afford a secondary education, but not rich enough to afford university on their own.

Go to moderate Muslim groups in the west... especially Muslim humanists... and broach the idea of outreach into the Middle East to spread the moderate message. Some of them will bite. Facilitate those efforts. Give them the tools they need to set up a region-wide network and recruit more of their kind to help. Remember, the goal isn't governmental overthrow, and it's not about spreading the ideas of Islam. It's about spreading ideas of moderation.

Try some charitable infrastructure-building, as well. Internet. Cel phone towers. Wifi networks. Satellite internet for remote villages. Lots of smart phones... not latest generation, but good enough to get internet. Facebook and Youtube are worth a hundred infantry divisions. The bonus of funding it is that we get to install it, which means we can deny the governments the sort of kill-switch that Egypt employed.

That's stage 1. Building up the base. Building up an interconnected population, swimming in the ideas of religious moderation and liberal democracy. There's more that can be done to further the process, once stage 1's done, but do just that much, and the dominoes will start to fall. People will focus less on the religious differences and more on the differences in class and privelege, less on Israel's abuses of Palestine and more on their own nation's abuses of them. They're already most of the way there. It won't take much more... and now that I think about it, most of this could be done privately, without Western governments driving it.

Like I said, no chance in hell of my getting any of this implemented, and I'm not an expert, so take it with a few thousand grains of salt. Still, that's my 2c.


I am not so worried. I actually live in a Muslim country and the people are some of the kindest I have met anywhere. They are not overtly religious at all. Everyone smokes, drinks. There is a "chicken ranch" down the road, strip joints and casinos all over the place. Arabic TV networks broadcast US smut like "Two and a Half Men", "How I met your Mother" and all the shootemup movies. Lots of Islamic countries are covertly very pro American. I had an Iranian friend in undergrad back before the revolution. He changed his name to an English name, hated Islam and Arabs and hung around American soldiers and adopted the name of a GI he met. Iranians are Persians and not Arabs. They are Shia which some Muslims say isn't even Islam which is why the Iran-Iraq war. Less than 7% of the people go to the Mosque since they turned it into a spying mechanism.

I dont' think Islam can go through what Christianity went through. I think TV and internet will move things forward much faster and more effectively but the stupidity of a god which is into pube shaving has to be undermined. I think people are afraid of calling this religion out. But most Muslims 97% have no idea what the Koran says, are into Western culture. Isis are made up of British and western drug addicts and criminals.

I believe Turkey is supporting ISIS. President Erdogan sees himself as the next world leader of Islam, the next Caliph. Some Turks had been captured by ISIS and Erdogan phoned up ISIS and told them to release them. They did.

Look at a map. All the borders of the IS are countries which are fighting against ISIS, except Turkey, which is funnelling weapons into Syria and hate Syria because it is actually run by what Erdogan sees as a non-Muslim, Christian-like secret sect.
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06-09-2014, 06:29 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(05-09-2014 04:59 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 04:51 PM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Never implied such a thing.

Quote: Next will be Israel. Israel have nukes. This can not be allowed.

That does kinda create the implication...

Putting that aside; I additionally doubt that the Israelis would be foolish enough to leave nuclear weapons unsecured in the face of an invasion.
Plus they are a tad better organised and armed than ISIS's current opponents anyway...

Ah, I see how it could have been read! I meant that it couldn't be allowed that ISIS got their hands on Israeli WMD's. Though I agree with you that Israel wouldn't let this happen anyway.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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06-09-2014, 06:55 AM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(06-09-2014 12:20 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I believe Turkey is supporting ISIS. President Erdogan sees himself as the next world leader of Islam, the next Caliph. Some Turks had been captured by ISIS and Erdogan phoned up ISIS and told them to release them. They did.

Look at a map. All the borders of the IS are countries which are fighting against ISIS, except Turkey, which is funnelling weapons into Syria and hate Syria because it is actually run by what Erdogan sees as a non-Muslim, Christian-like secret sect.

Turkey and ISIS are from different denominations. Yes, same religion but different rules and belives. And Isis still has 49 turkish hostages. Turkish consulate in ıraq has captured by Isis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement

Erdoğan makes big mosques and ISIS hates mosques. They think people in turkey are infidel and should be killed. But they don't have that much power.

http://www.vidivodo.com/video/erdogan-ab...rk/1226725

Erdogan says "USA doesn't have any concerns but we are because our people are in danger. We have to be calm. There is no goverment in Iraq so people in Iraq trusts us. We have to fix this Isis problem."
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06-09-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
Nope, Islam doesn't need reformation.

What it needs is total and complete annihilation.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-09-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
(06-09-2014 06:55 AM)Arcanist Wrote:  
(06-09-2014 12:20 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I believe Turkey is supporting ISIS. President Erdogan sees himself as the next world leader of Islam, the next Caliph. Some Turks had been captured by ISIS and Erdogan phoned up ISIS and told them to release them. They did.

Look at a map. All the borders of the IS are countries which are fighting against ISIS, except Turkey, which is funnelling weapons into Syria and hate Syria because it is actually run by what Erdogan sees as a non-Muslim, Christian-like secret sect.

Turkey and ISIS are from different denominations. Yes, same religion but different rules and belives. And Isis still has 49 turkish hostages. Turkish consulate in ıraq has captured by Isis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement

Erdoğan makes big mosques and ISIS hates mosques. They think people in turkey are infidel and should be killed. But they don't have that much power.

http://www.vidivodo.com/video/erdogan-ab...rk/1226725

Erdogan says "USA doesn't have any concerns but we are because our people are in danger. We have to be calm. There is no goverment in Iraq so people in Iraq trusts us. We have to fix this Isis problem."


I thought that was the case but I am not so sure now. The story is that most foreign Isis members are Turkish and that the oil from the IS is being sent through Turkey and is paying for ISIS. How is it that Erdogan was able to get Turkish hostages freed?

Erdogan pays for hundreds of mosques to be build so that he gets 20% of the money paid to the contractors as a kick back. He is being investigated for corruption but has had the investigation closed down and has had the police officers arrested, saying they are part of a secret state within a state run by a Muslim cleric in Pennsylvania called Fetula Gulen who used to be his friend. Erdogan has now shown his true colors. He believes Turkey will become the biggest economy in the world, he believes in the return of an Islamic Caliphate with himself as the leader of all Muslims in the world. He is a meglomaniac like Hitler. His wife is Arabic and he is supported mainly by the large fundamentalist Arabic Islamic part of Turkey which is on the side of Turkey next to Syria. He wants to change the constitution to make himself dictator and he is setting up kangaroo courts to put his opponents in jail.

Most worryingly, Erdogan's wife has come out publicly now and said that he will now begin an "intifada". It would be scary except that Erdogan is such a stupid, ignorant man that he will be taken down. About 80% of the population actually don't like him and when he starts putting police officers on trial he is going to get hs ass kicked by the European courts over and over and he'll never get the votes in parliament he needs to amend the constitution to give him any powers beyond his ceremonial powers as president. All the army officers he had arrested and sent to jail for life were recently released by the Constitutional court and the Kemalists and the army are just sitting back waiting for him to go too far, just like Morsi did. When he does, he's finished.
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06-09-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
Here's a site I found which is pretty much what along the lines of what I am saying http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/01/five-re...is-a-cult/

How can a group which would remove guarantees of freedom of thought and religion and would punish those who disagreed by killing them, expect to be protected by the Bill of Rights. Surely they are just like the Klu Klux Klan except that they behead everyone who opposes them regardless of color, although it is mainly aimed at whites. This is a group which openly advocates murder of those who want to leave the organization, refuses to allow its members to read the Koran and tells its members what to think, right down to cutting their toe nails. Thereis no free thought in Islam. It was founded by a beheading, illiterate, polygamistic, pedophile who cannot be questioned for fear death. That is, if he even existed, which I doubt very much. Certainly, he never wrote the Koran and had nothing to do with it. If he did exist, he was just some awful warlord who's name was used by Arabs in Yemen to rally support for an invasion and conquest of the Middle East.
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06-09-2014, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2014 04:49 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Does Islam need a reformation?
The reason I am not overly concerned by all this is that only 2% of Muslims have read any of the Koran, so when they say they are Muslims, it is only to avoid problems. My father was a member of the Church of England, another grrreat religion which isn't actually a religion at all and was also established by a beheading, polygamistic psychopath. My father told me that saying that you are a member of the Church of England is just something that English people say to officials who come to the door to make them go away. A religion, or any movement which is sustained by force and death threats to its members and in which virtually none of it's members have read the book on which it is based (and the book is pure idiotic crappola) is a house of cards, as the Ayatollahs are finding out and Morsi found out in Egypt. Most of the countries which have had this religion rammed down their throats, have older and distinct cultures, ie., Egypt, Iran which are far more sophisticated than Islam.

You only have to look at the state of the Church of England to see what happens to religions which don't make sense, in its case the monarch is the head of the religion because a long time ago the founder of the religion had to have an excuse for getting a divorce. The Church of England is now predicting that its congregations are so small that it won't survive another generation and may disappear altogether in about 20 to 30 years. If you go to a C of E church and listen to the Sermon, it is usually just a repetition of the last week's obituaries and local events. The last one I went to was at Christmas about 15 years ago and I don't remember the vicar even mentioning Jesus.

What is also good for us all is that Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood propagandists like Aljazeera are allowing London rap artists turned terrorists to lead the way by portraying Muslims as bloodthirsty bigots and morons. Remember the guy who videoed himself beheading a man during the Iraq war? He ended up as a greasy spot on the floor of a bombed out house.

Sadly, it may take some time before people in the west realize what Islam is all about. The Gaza war was a model of how to deal with these people. You can't compromise with them and you can't give any leeway to them at all. It is a matter of the West having to define Islam as a terrorist organization, in its present format, and treating it as that until it changes internally into something which isn't and, like the Church of England, becomes impotent and ineffectual and the churches just become tourist attractions or are converted into houses as is happening in the UK. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/articles...onversions
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