Does Jesus claim divinity?
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13-02-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(13-02-2012 10:57 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 10:30 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 09:38 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  And your conclusion should be, he did not claim divinity in any of those verses.

Claiming to be the Son of Man - a being that was given divine authority - is claiming divinity.

Since you're into language studies, you ought to check out what the Jews meant by "Son of Man." Christians have turned it into a phrase that = Divinity, but that wasn't the the original intent. It is a title for the Messiah NOT God. Jesus did not ever claim to be God. He could have had he wanted to, but he did not. Instead, he adopted the phrase used for God's Messiah...the one who would come to save Israel from their enemies.

Yeah, I know... I get that. He calls himself the "Son of God". He also calls himself "I am" aka Yahweh.

John 8:57-58
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

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13-02-2012, 11:13 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2012 03:50 PM by Malleus.)
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(12-02-2012 10:30 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 09:38 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  And your conclusion should be, he did not claim divinity in any of those verses.

Claiming to be the Son of Man - a being that was given divine authority - is claiming divinity.

Unless the Isle of Man can be viewed as a god and Jesus claimed to be its son, I have trouble seeing divinity in that statement. You see, my father was a man too, I know, I have seen him. Therefore, I have full confidence to say that I am Son of Man too.

Jesus answers more along the lines of "You said it, (not me)." which means "I never said that", which means "No". I know that Christians would love "You said it" to mean "yes". Unfortunately, you need to provide some proof showing that particular phrase used to mean yes in other contemporary literary works. To my knowledge there aren't such examples.

Technically, Jesus played the Oracle of Delphi card. Whenever somebody asked the oracle a question like "Will I win the next battle?" the oracle answered along the lines of "NEVER YOU WILL FAIL" (no punctuation) meaning either "Never. You will fail" or "You will never fail" thus the oracle was always right regardless of the outcome.

Jesus gave an answer meaning "No" to the Romans and "Yes" to his followers, which would make Jesus a politician (one of the reasons why I accept a theoretical possibility that the gospel legends are based on a grain of truth. Small enough to be irrelevant, but possibly true nonetheless) Saying yes to the Romans was blasphemy (death penalty). Saying no to his followers was suicide. He would have outed himself as a life-wrecking scammer. "You said it yourself" is and always was a yes-no answer.

Claiming to be the son of god (if he ever really said it or answered yes to such a question) is not equal to claiming that you are god. Since, according to the Bible god is the ultimate "father" of humanity, we are all sons of god. Unless we are daughters of god. Again, Jesus was very careful with his allegations. As I said, just like a politician, full deniability at all times.
(13-02-2012 11:05 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

That proves that he was reincarnated (I believe the disciples asked him about reincarnation and he gave them another one of those politician answers).

I was also in God's plan which is eternal and therefore precedes Abraham's life span. Or some other metaphor. C'mon, think like an apologist goddammit.

The problem here is that Jesus never said "Yo, check me out I am your god. I made you and I can break you". He never said a clear yes when he was asked whether he is god or not. In fact some of the first christians did not believe that he was a god at all. And supposedly this information was fresh in those days. You think you know better because you have the book that they decided not to burn? The one that doesn't specifically say that he wasn't more than a human?

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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15-03-2012, 12:02 AM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(13-02-2012 11:13 AM)Malleus Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 10:30 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 09:38 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  And your conclusion should be, he did not claim divinity in any of those verses.

Claiming to be the Son of Man - a being that was given divine authority - is claiming divinity.

Unless the Isle of Man can be viewed as a god and Jesus claimed to be its son, I have trouble seeing divinity in that statement. You see, my father was a man too, I know, I have seen him. Therefore, I have full confidence to say that I am Son of Man too.

Jesus answers more along the lines of "You said it, (not me)." which means "I never said that", which means "No". I know that Christians would love "You said it" to mean "yes". Unfortunately, you need to provide some proof showing that particular phrase used to mean yes in other contemporary literary works. To my knowledge there aren't such examples.

Technically, Jesus played the Oracle of Delphi card. Whenever somebody asked the oracle a question like "Will I win the next battle?" the oracle answered along the lines of "NEVER YOU WILL FAIL" (no punctuation) meaning either "Never. You will fail" or "You will never fail" thus the oracle was always right regardless of the outcome.

Jesus gave an answer meaning "No" to the Romans and "Yes" to his followers, which would make Jesus a politician (one of the reasons why I accept a theoretical possibility that the gospel legends are based on a grain of truth. Small enough to be irrelevant, but possibly true nonetheless) Saying yes to the Romans was blasphemy (death penalty). Saying no to his followers was suicide. He would have outed himself as a life-wrecking scammer. "You said it yourself" is and always was a yes-no answer.

Claiming to be the son of god (if he ever really said it or answered yes to such a question) is not equal to claiming that you are god. Since, according to the Bible god is the ultimate "father" of humanity, we are all sons of god. Unless we are daughters of god. Again, Jesus was very careful with his allegations. As I said, just like a politician, full deniability at all times.
(13-02-2012 11:05 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

That proves that he was reincarnated (I believe the disciples asked him about reincarnation and he gave them another one of those politician answers).

I was also in God's plan which is eternal and therefore precedes Abraham's life span. Or some other metaphor. C'mon, think like an apologist goddammit.

The problem here is that Jesus never said "Yo, check me out I am your god. I made you and I can break you". He never said a clear yes when he was asked whether he is god or not. In fact some of the first christians did not believe that he was a god at all. And supposedly this information was fresh in those days. You think you know better because you have the book that they decided not to burn? The one that doesn't specifically say that he wasn't more than a human?

Yeah, what Mal said goes double. Glad he did all the hard work.

Give that you're willing to use textual criticism to dissect the Old Testament, or at least Genesis, then why wouldn't you be willing to use the same tools on the New Testament. John was written something like 40 to 60 years after the Synoptic Gospels and when where they written? No earlier than 40 years after Jesus. Why is this significant? It means that John is less historically reliable as to actual words and events. His focus from verse 1 is purely theological. He wants to explain the divinity of Jesus because the fledgling "WAY" religion of the 1st century is beginning to wane. He figured they needed a boost of a God Jesus to start grabbing the headlines again.

My point being, Jesus never flat out said he was divine. Your only verse comes from a source that is not only historically suspect, but also uselessly cryptic. Why didn't the mother fucker just come out and say, YES, God damn it! I'm Fucking Addonai so you better start worshiping the fuck out of me!?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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15-03-2012, 05:17 AM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
Jesus of the Gospels is a Concocted Myth!
“Christians at all levels of intelligence and capacity are being denied access to vital information concerning their religion, and this curtailment of information helps breed either an attitude of ill-founded complacency, or one of smug self-certainty. Living in a kind of metaphysical dream, the custodians of ‘old fashioned’ Christianity stumble from one futile explanation of New Testament events to another. Jesus was sinless; Jesus was sexless; Jesus was all-knowing; Jesus is the Savior of the whole World; Jesus is God. Such sentiments slip easily from the lips when the mind has been overtaken by spiritual vertigo due to intellectual undernourishment.”
(Douglas Lockhart)

The Jesus of theology has replaced the Yeshua of history. Jesus is someone whose character, purpose and teachings have been invented by evangelists. One has to winnow out the substance from the gloss. We should now discard the gloss.

Yeshua’s primary agenda was not to preach philosophy. A wandering teacher’s pithy observations on life would not have attracted crowds of thousands, nor would it have attracted the attention of the Romans, Herod, the Sadducees, or the Pharisees. People were too poor and the times too hard for that. The real Yeshua was popular because he was a potential messiah, a charismatic young zealot supposedly from David’s bloodline who was crazy brave enough to stand up to the Romans. The Church has inverted his message to make it personal rather than social, and spiritual rather than political.

Yeshua was not the meek lamb of God and not a Christian. Christianity only emerged decades after his death - as a religion primarily for gentiles. It used a story about him to create something new that was not Jewish and that he would not have understood or approved of. The real Yeshua has been buried beneath a mountain of creeds, jargon and mysteries concocted many years after he died. He did not think he was the Son of God, nor did any of his original disciples. He did not think he was the savior of the world. To sacrifice himself for gentile sinners would never have crossed his mind. He never once thought he was the central figure of a new cult. He did not rise from the dead. The imaginative Paul of Tarsus promoted all these fictions many decades after Yeshua’s death. Yeshua never met Paul, yet if he had would have despised him for promoting heretical stories.

To keep Yeshua trapped in the Christian paradigm is disrespectful to the real man, and, more importantly, confuses many innocent people with a web of complex mind numbing falsehoods.
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15-03-2012, 07:27 AM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(15-03-2012 12:02 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  My point being, Jesus never flat out said he was divine.

I disagree. The response he received from John 8-58 indicates that the priesty-types knew he was claiming divinity. Tongue

Of course, the way I see it, Jesus was Paul's invention for the creation of evangelical Judaism.

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15-03-2012, 08:03 AM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(15-03-2012 07:27 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:02 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  My point being, Jesus never flat out said he was divine.

I disagree. The response he received from John 8-58 indicates that the priesty-types knew he was claiming divinity. Tongue

Of course, the way I see it, Jesus was Paul's invention for the creation of evangelical Judaism.

Exactly. Big Grin

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15-03-2012, 08:04 AM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
Fine, I'll research this.

Really, guys?

Like I don't have enough to do?

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15-03-2012, 08:07 AM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(15-03-2012 08:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fine, I'll research this.

Really, guys?

Like I don't have enough to do?

I will retract my spurious comments in exchange for another tablespoon of cinnamon only this time whilst standing on your head.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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15-03-2012, 03:21 PM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(15-03-2012 08:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fine, I'll research this.

Really, guys?

Like I don't have enough to do?

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15-03-2012, 04:41 PM
RE: Does Jesus claim divinity?
(12-02-2012 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  "Was Voldemort gay?"

For the record. Yes.

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