Does Porn Suck?
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19-11-2012, 03:26 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(19-11-2012 03:14 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  As I already stated.

Is this the ultimate trump card?

Quote:Edit: By the way, "do you honestly think that the argument 'Or even if it is, it is still sick.' is anything more than trying to ascribe more value to your own opinion (and intellect)?"
Yes it is. I didn't say that everyone who enjoys Salo (as opposed to me not liking it) is a sick stupid freak, whose abilities to understand a movie are inferior to mine.

May I put something really simply: Everything that's been said so far has been opinions. Neither is more valid or truer. I won't change yours (nor do I want to), you won't change mine. I however, rarely accuse people who do not think the way I do, of being stupider than me.

A lot of people here have expressed fondness, even love, for stuff that I don't like (or even hate), but I don't feel the urge to go and tell them they're wrong. Why? Because they are not. And because I do not need everyone to think like me or agree with me.

And I mean the above in the nicest possible way.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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19-11-2012, 03:33 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2012 03:37 AM by Misanthropik.)
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(19-11-2012 03:26 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(19-11-2012 03:14 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  As I already stated.

Is this the ultimate trump card?

Quote:Edit: By the way, "do you honestly think that the argument 'Or even if it is, it is still sick.' is anything more than trying to ascribe more value to your own opinion (and intellect)?"
Yes it is. I didn't say that everyone who enjoys Salo (as opposed to me not liking it) is a sick stupid freak, whose abilities to understand a movie are inferior to mine.

May I put something really simply: Everything that's been said so far has been opinions. Neither is more valid or truer. I won't change yours (nor do I want to), you won't change mine. I however, rarely accuse people who do not think the way I do, of being stupider than me.

A lot of people here have expressed fondness, even love, for stuff that I don't like (or even hate), but I don't feel the urge to go and tell them they're wrong. Why? Because they are not. And because I do not need everyone to think like me or agree with me.

And I mean the above in the nicest possible way.
"Is this the ultimate trump card?"

It's a nice way of saying "Pay the fuck attention so I don't have to repeat myself each time you argue a point that I already refuted."

"A lot of people here have expressed fondness, even love, for stuff that I don't like (or even hate), but I don't feel the urge to go and tell them they're wrong. Why? Because they are not."

On the contrary:

Oh yeah, the Saw movies are way too deep to be grasped by ordinary folks. Deep like a cesspit. And yeah, the audiences loved them the for the deep philosophical questions they raised. Do you honestly believe that?

Salo was considered a masterpiece by many too. Doesn't mean it is one. Or even if it is, it is still sick.

What if I said that the deep thought-provoking layers are just to hide yet another layer, which is all about the enjoyment of pain, but people are too stupid to dig this deep?

Pretty much everything you posted was an attempt to demean or invalidate the artistic opinions of others.

Edit: Also...

"I didn't say that everyone who enjoys Salo (as opposed to me not liking it) is a sick stupid freak, whose abilities to understand a movie are inferior to mine."

Yeah, YOU KINDA FUCKIN' DID:

"Or even if it is, it is still sick."

"What if I said that the deep thought-provoking layers are just to hide yet another layer, which is all about the enjoyment of pain, but people are too stupid to dig this deep?"

Lmao. You're as fun to debate as a creationist.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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19-11-2012, 04:11 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
Saying that a movie is sick and saying that the people who enjoy it are sick are two different things.

Other than this, I have only four words for you: Get over yourself. Seriously.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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19-11-2012, 04:17 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(19-11-2012 04:11 AM)Vera Wrote:  Saying that a movie is sick and saying that the people who enjoy it are sick are two different thinghs.
Other than this, I have only four words for you: Get over yourself. Seriously.
1) It can be. Then again, it can be taken as a personal insult. If a film is "sick", and certain people flock to it to enjoy what it has to offer (sickness), it can easily (if not a bit fallaciously) be said that they are sick as well. And given the context of your post, I'm sure you can see how that is the sentiment which can be taken from your words. Let's not forget that in other posts, you claimed that the enjoyment of suffering and pain are "abnormal", or, "deviations from the norm". This, by default, labels those who possess such enjoyment as "abnormal".

2) I could say the same to you, love. Wink

Besides, I'm far too awesome to simply "get over".

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19-11-2012, 04:28 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
There are none as blind as those who will not see. Must be great being you. Don't ever grow up.

And yes, enjoying the infliction of real pain is abnormal. I am not talking erotic asphyxiation and the relatively mild stuff of BDSM. I'm talking real, non-necessarily sexual sadism. If you do not know the distinction, I suggest you go read up on it. And seeing as Salo is based on the works of Marquis de Sade (you know, the guy from whose name the terms derives, a French dude from the 18th century, not Geoffrey Rush) it pretty much qualifies as sick and sadistic.

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19-11-2012, 04:35 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(19-11-2012 04:28 AM)Vera Wrote:  There are none as blind as those who will not see. Must be great being you. Don't ever grow up.

And yes, enjoying the infliction of real pain is abnormal. I am not talking erotic asphyxiation and the relatively mild stuff of BDSM. I'm talking real, non-necessarily sexual sadism. If you do not know the distinction, I suggest you go read up on it. And seeing as Salo is based on the works of Marquis de Sade (you know, the guy from whose name the terms derives, a French dude from the 18th century, not Geoffrey Rush) it pretty much qualifies as sick and sadistic.

And anyone who enjoys "sick" and "sadistic" things...what does that make them, in your view?

"Don't ever grow up."

We addressed this in our first-ever exchange here on the forum. Big Grin

"And yes, enjoying the infliction of real pain is abnormal."

So, since you've modified it, how do you qualify the enjoyment of simulated pain, such as the pain depicted in the Saw films? (This directly relates to the first question in this post)

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19-11-2012, 04:52 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(19-11-2012 04:35 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  And anyone who enjoys "sick" and "sadistic" things...what does that make them, in your view?

You realise I can't possibly answer such a sweeping generalisation? It might make then an Ian Brady or a bored person going to the movies on a slow night. Or anything in between. The world is not black and white.

Quote:"Don't ever grow up."
We addressed this in our first-ever exchange here on the forum. Big Grin

There is a difference between growing up and growing old.

Quote:"And yes, enjoying the infliction of real pain is abnormal."

So, since you've modified it, how do you qualify the enjoyment of simulated pain, such as the pain depicted in the Saw films? (This directly relates to the first question in this post)
When I said real pain, I meant in terms of degree, not as opposed to simulated.

And I don't qualify this enjoyment - I am interested to know what is it about it that gives people pleasure. And if you feel so strongly about the Saw movies, I might have asked the same question about The Human Centipede. Where does the fascination lie and given how strong our preservation instinct usually is, as well as our capacity for empathy (at least in most of us), where does the enjoyment of/fascination with watching others suffer come from?

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19-11-2012, 05:07 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(19-11-2012 04:52 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(19-11-2012 04:35 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  And anyone who enjoys "sick" and "sadistic" things...what does that make them, in your view?

You realise I can't possibly answer such a sweeping generalisation? It might make then an Ian Brady or a bored person going to the movies on a slow night. Or anything in between. The world is not black and white.

Quote:"Don't ever grow up."
We addressed this in our first-ever exchange here on the forum. Big Grin

There is a difference between growing up and growing old.

Quote:"And yes, enjoying the infliction of real pain is abnormal."

So, since you've modified it, how do you qualify the enjoyment of simulated pain, such as the pain depicted in the Saw films? (This directly relates to the first question in this post)
When I said real pain, I meant in terms of degree, not as opposed to simulated.

And I don't qualify this enjoyment - I am interested to know what is it about it that gives people pleasure. And if you feel so strongly about the Saw movies, I might have asked the same question about The Human Centipede. Where does the fascination lie and given how strong our preservation instinct usually is, as well as our capacity for empathy (at least in most of us), where does the enjoyment of/fascination with watching others suffer come from?

"You realise I can't possibly answer such a sweeping generalisation? It might make then an Ian Brady or a bored person going to the movies on a slow night. Or anything in between. The world is not black and white."

A "bored person" wouldn't enjoy the film. They may watch it to kill time, but that doesn't mean they're gaining enjoyment out of the suffering depicted.

So again, I'll ask, how do you qualify someone who enjoys the actual or the simulated suffering of others? Are they "sick" for enjoying such things?

"There is a difference between growing up and growing old."

The comment which sparked your "don't grow up" condescention was a joke. Most people would have picked up on that.

Then again, most people know that there's more to the Saw films than just blood and suffering.

"I am interested to know what is it about it that gives people pleasure. And if you feel so strongly about the Saw movies, I might have asked the same question about The Human Centipede. Where does the fascination lie and given how strong our preservation instinct usually is, as well as our capacity for empathy (at least in most of us), where does the enjoyment of/fascination with watching others suffer come from?"

This is not a psyche evaluation. This is not a exploration into the depths of the Human mind. You may do that on your own time. This has been about you labeling the Saw films as little more than "torture porn"; "deep like a cesspit" and implied that it is nothing more than a mindless depiction of pain and suffering veiled in a layer of "deeper meaning" which fans are "too stupid" to see past.

THAT is where I take issue, and THAT is why I called you out. You then proceeded to make fallacious arguments and even dodge my refutations before attempting to turn the argument toward ME. So, where the fascination comes from is irrelevant to the argument I sparked. Do try to stay on track.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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19-11-2012, 05:23 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
No, you just don't have the mental capacity to grasp that the Human Centipede is a deep, thought-provoking exploration of the human psyche.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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19-11-2012, 05:29 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(19-11-2012 05:23 AM)Vera Wrote:  No, you just don't have the mental capacity to grasp that the Human Centipede is a deep, thought-provoking exploration of the human psyche.
Once again, you're dodging my arguments. That's very telling.

I suppose I'll address this irrelevance anyway; Aside from the Saw franchise, I've never seen any of the movies you've used to support your already-shaky arguments, sweetheart. It may very-well be as your sarcasm has described. Who knows? Either way, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand, which was directed at and centered around the Saw films and your claims about them.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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