Does Porn Suck?
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28-03-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(22-03-2012 05:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I think many would join me in condenming at least some of the more virulent forms of pornography such as kiddie porn, blatant degradation of women, simulated snuff movies, and scat. Others will say that our rights against censorship is more important.

In all of the above save child pornography, yes, it is.

Freedom of expression doesn't exist to protect the things we like. It exists to protect the things we don't. You're free to consider things like scat, simulated snuff, and objectification of women to be evil, but that doesn't give you the right to censor the production of these films. You can think they suck all you want. No one is forcing you to watch them.

(22-03-2012 05:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  No one argues for the legalization of child pornography and there are other areas that realy push the limits, such as the brutalization of women. It is hard to understand how men who like to watch such would not prefer the real thing if they could get it.

There are women who have rape fantasies, and who act out these fantasies with their romantic partners. Does this mean that they would actually enjoy being raped? If you think that the answer is "yes", you may need to talk to a few more women.

(22-03-2012 05:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The billion dollar porn industry is but one example of capitalist exploitation whererby grossly weird and potentially dangerous human fantasies are teased ,then exploted in the name of human freedom and self gratification with the taxes there from allegedly assisting the undeclasses. I am aware of the problems associated with censorship, but in some areas the polarised position of open slather, no holds barred consumerism ,appears as equally, if not more, dangerous.

I want you to take this argument you have just presented, then replace every instance of the word "porn" with "violent video games". Or "moves like Saw". Or anything of the kind.

You do not have the right to dictate to others what it is and is not okay to be sexually excited by. As long as all partners are consenting, people can make whatever the hell kind of videos they want, and masturbate to the same.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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28-03-2012, 12:27 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
although snuff? seriously that shit is evil.
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28-03-2012, 12:35 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(28-03-2012 12:27 PM)morondog Wrote:  although snuff? seriously that shit is evil.
Still doesn't give you the right to censor it.

Oh, actual snuff films - as in, videos of people really dying - are and should be illegal without expressed permission of the families of those involved. If they want to release the video to the public, that's their decision, and you can't really stop other people from doing whatever the hell they want to do with it once it's voluntarily released.

Simulated snuff, though, is another matter. I personally find it repulsive, but no one is actually getting hurt and all parties involved are consenting to the act being filmed.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
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28-03-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(28-03-2012 12:35 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-03-2012 12:27 PM)morondog Wrote:  although snuff? seriously that shit is evil.
Still doesn't give you the right to censor it.

Oh, actual snuff films - as in, videos of people really dying - are and should be illegal without expressed permission of the families of those involved. If they want to release the video to the public, that's their decision, and you can't really stop other people from doing whatever the hell they want to do with it once it's voluntarily released.

Simulated snuff, though, is another matter. I personally find it repulsive, but no one is actually getting hurt and all parties involved are consenting to the act being filmed.
Yeah fair enough. I'm kinda interested to explore this censorship thing a bit though. For me if a government were to make sim snuff illegal I wouldn't have a problem with that - the guys who want it to not be illegal are free to challenge in the courts, same as the guys who want it to be illegal.
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28-03-2012, 12:59 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
What is snuff films? I could probably google it, but I am feeling lazy.

Is it just a video of people on their death bed? If so, what does this have to do with porn?
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28-03-2012, 01:03 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(28-03-2012 12:59 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  What is snuff films? I could probably google it, but I am feeling lazy.

Is it just a video of people on their death bed? If so, what does this have to do with porn?
Often violent. Not that I know much about it, I have encountered it once or twice. Porn such as a rape scene where the victim dies on camera.
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28-03-2012, 01:03 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(28-03-2012 12:54 PM)morondog Wrote:  Yeah fair enough. I'm kinda interested to explore this censorship thing a bit though. For me if a government were to make sim snuff illegal I wouldn't have a problem with that - the guys who want it to not be illegal are free to challenge in the courts, same as the guys who want it to be illegal.

And why would you not have a problem with that? Does the government violating your First Amendment rights not trouble you?

In all honesty, though, in an ideal universe this would never get passed into law in the first place, because it is clearly a violation of the First Amendment. In a slightly less ideal world, this would be one of those laws which is immediately overturned. In a still more slightly less ideal world, it would be one of those laws that, like the flag-burning laws still present in some states, never gets brought to court precisely because the legislators know that it would be overturned by the Supreme Court, so they never press charges on any violations. It is, de facto, not a law.

In our world, sadly, I could see this both passing and being upheld. I don't know how likely it is, but it's possible. I'm not happy about it, but there you go.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
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28-03-2012, 01:04 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(28-03-2012 12:59 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  What is snuff films? I could probably google it, but I am feeling lazy.

Is it just a video of people on their death bed? If so, what does this have to do with porn?
Snuff films are death porn. That's pretty much it. Porn in which one or more participants - commonly the woman, who is most often being raped - dies on camera.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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28-03-2012, 01:13 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
Hehe Smile Not American.

In South Africa we have several laws about hate speech, restricting freedom of speech. It's in the constitution. It's a good thing IMO. I think we have some about respecting gender and race equality too.

Child porn is illegal, I don't see how extending it to death porn is a huge stretch from child porn being illegal? What rights does the first ammendment give you that would be contravened by such a law?

I'm arguing for interest please understand. I don't really give a damn either way Smile
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28-03-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Does Porn Suck?
(28-03-2012 01:13 PM)morondog Wrote:  Hehe Smile Not American.

Ahh, gotcha. That makes a little more sense, then.

(28-03-2012 01:13 PM)morondog Wrote:  In South Africa we have several laws about hate speech, restricting freedom of speech. It's in the constitution. It's a good thing IMO. I think we have some about respecting gender and race equality too.

I don't think that's a good thing, personally. Legally, of course, all races and genders and orientations should be equal, but I think it's wrong to have a law requiring that someone respect that equality, or refrain from saying that they don't.

(28-03-2012 01:13 PM)morondog Wrote:  Child porn is illegal, I don't see how extending it to death porn is a huge stretch from child porn being illegal?

Child porn is illegal because children are not legally capable of giving consent. They aren't emotionally or intellectually mature enough to give consent to such a thing. Simulated snuff, on the other hand, as disgusting as I might find it personally, has both parties giving consent.

Child porn isn't illegal because we find it immoral. It's illegal because it violates a law.

(28-03-2012 01:13 PM)morondog Wrote:  What rights does the first ammendment give you that would be contravened by such a law?

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Essentially, it guarantees all individuals the right to print, say, and publicize whatever they wish to (as long as doing so doesn't infringe on any laws or the rights of others). Freedom of expression.

In case you aren't aware, the first ten Amendments to the Constitution are known as the "Bill of Rights". They were the first additions made to the Constitution, and were adopted just after the Constitution itself (in fact, the Constitution itself was only adopted once a promise of the adoption of the Amendments had been made). They're considered to be some of the most important parts of the Constitution, and are the legal enumeration of the "inalienable rights" spoken about in the Declaration of Independence. They're a very fundamental part of American freedoms.

So the First Amendment gives all Americans the right to say and publish whatever they damn well please, as long as they don't break any other laws or infringe on another's rights by doing so. It does not, however, prevent other people from saying that they don't like it. Basically, you can be a hateful, racist, snuff-film-fan ass all you want, and we will respect your right to be that person, but we don't have to like it. We can't prosecute you for it unless you break a law, but we still don't have to like it.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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