Does White Privilege Exist?
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28-06-2017, 10:01 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 08:27 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 02:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But if the problem is that a high percentage of blacks commit crimes, then the solution is to try to prevent blacks from committing crimes
That solution is just a stopgap. Correlation is not causality.

The real problem is to analyze a) are a high percentage of blacks committing crimes? b) if so, why is that percentage higher than in other populations, and c) do they happen to share traits other than skin color with other high-crime populations: poverty; unemployment; lack of opportunity of advancement, etc., etc.

A problem is solved by discovering its roots, and attacking those roots.
Attacking only the most obvious symptoms doesn't solve the problem; it just covers it up.
Yes, I agree with this. I'm not suggesting to lock up blacks in order to stop them comitting crimes, I am suggesting to look into the reasons why they commit crimes at a higher rate than other races (if that is the case, incarceration rates suggest it is). Address the reasons. Affirmative action does not address the reasons, it ignores them completely.
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28-06-2017, 10:05 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 10:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 08:27 PM)Dr H Wrote:  That solution is just a stopgap. Correlation is not causality.

The real problem is to analyze a) are a high percentage of blacks committing crimes? b) if so, why is that percentage higher than in other populations, and c) do they happen to share traits other than skin color with other high-crime populations: poverty; unemployment; lack of opportunity of advancement, etc., etc.

A problem is solved by discovering its roots, and attacking those roots.
Attacking only the most obvious symptoms doesn't solve the problem; it just covers it up.
Yes, I agree with this. I'm not suggesting to lock up blacks in order to stop them comitting crimes, I am suggesting to look into the reasons why they commit crimes at a higher rate than other races (if that is the case, incarceration rates suggest it is). Address the reasons. Affirmative action does not address the reasons, it ignores them completely.

I still take issue with your assertion that any group of people commit crimes at a higher rate than any other group. Personally. I see crime all over that is never prosecuted, it it were I think the disparity you're talking about would close real fast. The real question is why poor people and black people deserve to go to jail for theft and a CEO commits theft of 100's of thousands of dollars from customers and/or employees and gets no jail time.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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28-06-2017, 10:13 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 10:05 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I still take issue with your assertion that any group of people commit crimes at a higher rate than any other group.
It's not an assertion, it's based off the incarceration facts.
I take your point though that perhaps certain races get hit with harsher penalties than others, but I don't know if this IS the case or whether it accounts entirely for this encarceration rate.

I was merely pointing this out because if the perception is that blacks commit crimes then perhaps people may be scared of those people or not give them the benefit of the doubt.

If this is what is happening, you can't simply scream out to non blacks to all of a sudden trust the blacks. The black community would do themselves a lot of favours by addressing the incarceration rates (if that is a problem), if this is possibly within their control. If blacks gain a reputation as being trustworthy and dependable then they might perhaps become favoured for jobs.

(28-06-2017 10:05 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Personally. I see crime all over that is never prosecuted, it it were I think the disparity you're talking about would close real fast. The real question is why poor people and black people deserve to go to jail for theft and a CEO commits theft of 100's of thousands of dollars from customers and/or employees and gets no jail time.
We need to compare apples with apples.
What happens when a black CEO crosses the line?

Do black judges come down as hard on black criminals as white judges do?
Do black police shoot black suspects as much as white police do?
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28-06-2017, 10:20 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 10:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 10:05 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I still take issue with your assertion that any group of people commit crimes at a higher rate than any other group.
It's not an assertion, it's based off the incarceration facts.
I take your point though that perhaps certain races get hit with harsher penalties than others, but I don't know if this IS the case or whether it accounts entirely for this encarceration rate.

I was merely pointing this out because if the perception is that blacks commit crimes then perhaps people may be scared of those people or not give them the benefit of the doubt.

If this is what is happening, you can't simply scream out to non blacks to all of a sudden trust the blacks. The black community would do themselves a lot of favours by addressing the incarceration rates (if that is a problem), if this is possibly within their control. If blacks gain a reputation as being trustworthy and dependable then they might perhaps become favoured for jobs.

(28-06-2017 10:05 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Personally. I see crime all over that is never prosecuted, it it were I think the disparity you're talking about would close real fast. The real question is why poor people and black people deserve to go to jail for theft and a CEO commits theft of 100's of thousands of dollars from customers and/or employees and gets no jail time.
We need to compare apples with apples.
What happens when a black CEO crosses the line?

Do black judges come down as hard on black criminals as white judges do?
Do black police shoot black suspects as much as white police do?

Incarceration data is just that. Data. Information is created from data, however you lack the data to come to the claim you are making so no it is not a fact it is an assertion. For it to be a fact you would also have to have data on actual crime statistics, including crime that ends up neither being reported or convicted ect. Like rich people who commit crimes and get a bonus instead of a jail cell. And it does happen it's amazing you can't think of one example right off the top of your head cause it happens a LOT.

The thing is Justice is supposed to be blind. Yet we've never had that once in our country. IF justice were blind your incarceration numbers would allow for more meaningful information to be gleaned from it.

Edit^ For clarity what your incarceration numbers indicates is a higher number of CONVICTIONS and NOT a higher number of crimes COMMITTED. There is a difference and again that is what I take issue with in your claim.

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28-06-2017, 11:44 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Stevil you see evidence that black people commit crimes at a higher rate, I see evidence that there is systematic discrimination in the justice system. I read a book a while back "An expensive way to make bad people worse", which is a look at the criminal justice system in America. I can't remember offhand the facts that he cites, but the guy pretty much proved to my satisfaction that it's definitely not the case that black people are more "criminal minded" than others. You've also got to control for factors such as poverty and education - black people historically in the US and elsewhere have been and continue to be denied economic power and education. So of course there's a correlation to criminal behaviour. That definitely does not imply that being black predisposes you to crime.

Another problem is this: growing up with a Dad who's incarcerated. Common experience for black kids. It already disadvantages the kid and perpetuates the cycle. Add to that that frequently black kids and adults are arrested and convicted for petty crimes where white people get away with either a fine or a slap on the wrist. If that's not systematic racial discrimination, what is? I realise I should cite actual statistics to back up these claims and will dig them up if necessary.

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28-06-2017, 11:57 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  That definitely does not imply that being black predisposes you to crime.

Indeed, however it does increase your likelihood of being in a position that encourages criminality.

Teenagers get caught with pot. A white teenager is more likely to be let off with a slap on the wrist or nothing at all, while a teenager of color is more likely to get the book thrown at them by either the police or the justice system. That's the difference between a clean record or not, which can affect access to education and work, and even public assistance. All things being equal, a black teen that gets super fucked over by the system like that will have the deck further stacked against them, making criminality more comparatively lucrative (if not necessary) as other more legitimate avenues are closed off to them.

Prevent honest people from making an honest living (by stripping away their right to vote, access to education or work, public assistance, etc.), and you'll turn honest people into criminals.

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29-06-2017, 12:04 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 11:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  That definitely does not imply that being black predisposes you to crime.

Indeed, however it does increase your likelihood of being in a position that encourages criminality.

Teenagers get caught with pot. A white teenager is more likely to be let off with a slap on the wrist or nothing at all, while a teenager of color is more likely to get the book thrown at them by either the police or the justice system. That's the difference between a clean record or not, which can affect access to education and work, and even public assistance. All things being equal, a black teen that gets super fucked over by the system like that will have the deck further stacked against them, making criminality more comparatively lucrative (if not necessary) as other more legitimate avenues are closed off to them.

Prevent honest people from making an honest living (by stripping away their right to vote, access to education or work, public assistance, etc.), and you'll turn honest people into criminals.

JUST a friendly reminder to all the kids that get caught with pot... It'sssss LEGAL.... in California..... (so move here)

But yea, I do agree with you on this point EK and on your point Morondog

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29-06-2017, 12:14 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 10:20 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Incarceration data is just that. Data. Information is created from data, however you lack the data to come to the claim you are making so no it is not a fact it is an assertion. For it to be a fact you would also have to have data on actual crime statistics, including crime that ends up neither being reported or convicted ect. Like rich people who commit crimes and get a bonus instead of a jail cell. And it does happen it's amazing you can't think of one example right off the top of your head cause it happens a LOT.
I don't have crime statistics, I certainly don't have unreported crime statistics (how can you come up with statistics for things that are unreported?)
I am going off incarceration stats because that is the best data I have available. I am ASSUMING there is a correlation between crime and incarceration, silly idea I know but one does seem to lead to the other.
I do recognise your concern that perhaps blacks are dealt with more harshly in the courts, I don't know if this is true but it does cast a shadow on the correlation between crime and incarceration, but I am not about to throw that correlation out the window based on an unsubstatiated claim that blacks are dealt more severely in the courts.

Anyways, I haven't performed an investigation on this stuff, I just brought up the topic as possibly one reason why people might be scared or mistrustful of blacks (in general). It may be true, it may not be. But I don't think I just pulled it out my arse, I think it is a reasonable thing to question.



(28-06-2017 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  Stevil you see evidence that black people commit crimes at a higher rate, I see evidence that there is systematic discrimination in the justice system.
Higher incarceration rates isn't evidence for systematic discrimination in the justice system.
If one assumes the justice system is working then higher incarceration rates is evidence for higher crime rates.

What evidence is there to say that the justice system isn't working?

(28-06-2017 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  black people historically in the US and elsewhere have been and continue to be denied economic power and education.
I don't know if this is true.
What laws or rules lead to black people being denied education and economic power?
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29-06-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 12:14 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 10:20 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Incarceration data is just that. Data. Information is created from data, however you lack the data to come to the claim you are making so no it is not a fact it is an assertion. For it to be a fact you would also have to have data on actual crime statistics, including crime that ends up neither being reported or convicted ect. Like rich people who commit crimes and get a bonus instead of a jail cell. And it does happen it's amazing you can't think of one example right off the top of your head cause it happens a LOT.
I don't have crime statistics, I certainly don't have unreported crime statistics (how can you come up with statistics for things that are unreported?)
I am going off incarceration stats because that is the best data I have available. I am ASSUMING there is a correlation between crime and incarceration, silly idea I know but one does seem to lead to the other.
I do recognise your concern that perhaps blacks are dealt with more harshly in the courts, I don't know if this is true but it does cast a shadow on the correlation between crime and incarceration, but I am not about to throw that correlation out the window based on an unsubstatiated claim that blacks are dealt more severely in the courts.

Anyways, I haven't performed an investigation on this stuff, I just brought up the topic as possibly one reason why people might be scared or mistrustful of blacks (in general). It may be true, it may not be. But I don't think I just pulled it out my arse, I think it is a reasonable thing to question.



(28-06-2017 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  Stevil you see evidence that black people commit crimes at a higher rate, I see evidence that there is systematic discrimination in the justice system.
Higher incarceration rates isn't evidence for systematic discrimination in the justice system.
If one assumes the justice system is working then higher incarceration rates is evidence for higher crime rates.

What evidence is there to say that the justice system isn't working?

(28-06-2017 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  black people historically in the US and elsewhere have been and continue to be denied economic power and education.
I don't know if this is true.
What laws or rules lead to black people being denied education and economic power?

Actually, while I do think blacks are dealt with more harshly in the courts that's not even the point I'm trying to make.

I'm saying your reasoning and assumptions are flawed because you need to demonstrate that white people are actually being tried and convicted when they commit a crime (and yes you're right you don't have data, no one does and that's a problem).

The thing is we know white people commit crimes, corporations commit crimes and we know they face no punishment for it, we hear it and see it on the news often. Now that is anecdotal we can't draw reasonable conclusions from that OTHER than we do know it happens and we need to investigate further. However knowing that this happens it's completely unreasonable to draw a conclusion that blacks are in prison at higher rates because of a higher occurrence of crime. WE KNOW that data is flawed because of the first part of this paragraph. In fact I'm quite convinced based on everything I've seen that again all races and genders commit crimes at about the same rate. The only difference in who goes to jail is (primarily) wealth (also) race and (finally) gender there are biases in the courts on all these factors though I personally do think the number 1 bias is wealth, and thanks to the wealth inequality that places so many natively born black people in the country in poverty of course would by extension lead to higher occurrence of black incarceration.

You now have multiple examples that poke holes in your claim and conclusions.

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29-06-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 12:14 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  black people historically in the US and elsewhere have been and continue to be denied economic power and education.
I don't know if this is true.
What laws or rules lead to black people being denied education and economic power?


The war on drugs.

White people make up the majority of drug users, but black people far outnumber them in prison. So the war clearly isn't being fought equitably. This could be selective enforcement of the police, the particular places they focus their attention on, judicial or prosecution bias, the prevalence of 'three strike' laws passed by predominately white politicians, or some combination or all of the above.

Take two teenagers with pregnant girlfriends, both smoke pot. The white man living in the suburbs is far more likely to never get caught in the first place. The police don't raid the suburbs like they might city neighborhoods. They're less likely to get busted on account of being pulled over while driving for some superfluous reason. Even if they are caught, they're more likely to get the benefit of the doubt and lenient treatment. That same scenario, but with a black man in the city? They're not going to get the same chances. They're more likely to get pulled over or patted down without reason, they're more likely to be taken away in cuffs on the spot rather than a slap on the wrist.

Now what does that do to their kids? The white one is more likely to have a father at home, which gives him a number of advantages. The black one is more likely to have their father in prison, for the very same actions, and that puts them at a huge comparative disadvantage. It's a cycle that can, and does, perpetuate itself. So yeah, that hypothetical fatherless black child has been denied the same opportunities afforded to his white peers, on account of his family being treated differently.

It's not a 100% sure thing, and there are plenty of exception, but there is an underlying trend that feeds the stereotype. White kids smoking pot are 'kids being kids' and just being rebellious, something they'll grow out of. Black kids smoking pot are 'thugs' and 'criminals', and just on the road to be no good just like their parents.

This feeds into even more underlying weird shit, like people judging the at a glance age of black kids to be significantly older than white kids. Might seem like nothing, until it's a cop being called on a report of a kid with a gun in a playground. If the kid is 12 and white, the cop is more likely to see a child with a toy gun. If the child is a black 12 year old, they're more likely to see a teenager with a real gun (including to the person who called the police). Combine that with 'shoot first, ask questions later' police training, laws that give police favorable use of lethal force, and often friendly DA prosecutors? That's how you get cops shooting black kids playing with toy guns in playgrounds. It's a series of small things, almost infinitesimal in themselves, but they come together with some really detrimental effects.

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