Does White Privilege Exist?
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29-06-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:26 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:25 AM)KUSA Wrote:  Are Asians considered people of color?

Yes. Are you going to suggest to me that Asians do not experience discrimination based on their race?

I think a good metaphor would be how you could build two obstacle courses, one more difficult than the other. Have people run them, some people may make it through the more difficult obstacle course faster than the people that ran the easier one. That doesn't mean the more difficult one was easier, it just meant some people worked harder and still managed to succeed despite the increased difficulty.

Though a lot of it isn't about economic outcomes that's only part of the picture here, it's also.... about.... hmm... well for lack of a better way to put it, how it makes people feel. I mean anyone who's read about me talking about my dad kinda know's how his constant put downs really weigh on me despite my trying my best not to ever let it get to me. There's something similar going on there too, no one deserves to be treated like they are somehow less than others ESPECIALLY based on things outside their control (like hair color, or the size of their dick, or the size of their feet/hands or height, or boob size... My point is racial discrimination makes about as much sense as any of those other forms of discrimination, in fact several of those like genital size might actually be more justifiable in some weird way, not that that would be ok just that skin color delineations make the least possible sense for descrimination over all)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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29-06-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:14 AM)KUSA Wrote:  Is that a White privilege or a disadvantage of another race or ethnicity?

It is called white privilege. I would not be fixated on the choice of wording(a poor choice in my opinion) as much as the fact that the phenomenon it describes is real. Where one group enjoys a benefit of the doubt, another group endures a deficit of the same. Sometimes with deadly consequences.

That's right -- semantics aside, the phenomenon exists. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. Word-choice can be very important, but in this case, it isn't nearly as important as the disparate treatment of races in America -- no matter how one labels it.
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29-06-2017, 11:56 AM
Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:14 AM)KUSA Wrote:  Is that a White privilege or a disadvantage of another race or ethnicity?

It is called white privilege. I would not be fixated on the choice of wording(a poor choice in my opinion) as much as the fact that the phenomenon it describes is real. Where one group enjoys a benefit of the doubt, another group endures a deficit of the same. Sometimes with deadly consequences.


I see you like grouping everyone in a particular race together. That's discrimination. It makes ever white person guilty and every person of color a victim.
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29-06-2017, 12:08 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:56 AM)KUSA Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  It is called white privilege. I would not be fixated on the choice of wording(a poor choice in my opinion) as much as the fact that the phenomenon it describes is real. Where one group enjoys a benefit of the doubt, another group endures a deficit of the same. Sometimes with deadly consequences.


I see you like grouping everyone in a particular race together. That's discrimination. It makes ever white person guilty and every person of color a victim.

FYI I actually hate it. I can't make head or tail of the rest of your hypothesis.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-06-2017, 12:08 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:43 AM)KUSA Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:26 AM)Emma Wrote:  Yes. Are you going to suggest to me that Asians do not experience discrimination based on their race?


Everyone experiences discrimination based on their race even white people.

I dare say that Asians are looked at very favorably as a race though. They don't appear to have these issues you illustrate about other races.

I have a problem with the term "White privilege ". All it does is demonize an entire race. It's looking at every problem the wrong way.

Asians experience a different flavor of racism and discrimination- generally better than other people of color, but their experiences are not the same as the "default white" experience.

Quote:In modern times, Asians have been perceived as a "model minority". They are seen as more educated and successful, and are stereotyped as intelligent and hard-working, but socially inept.[73] Asians may experience expectations of natural intelligence and excellence from whites as well as other minorities.[62][74] This has led to discrimination in the workplace, as Asian Americans may face unreasonable expectations because of the "model minority" stereotype. In 2000, out of 1,218 adult Asian Americans, 92 percent of those who experienced personal discrimination believed that the unfair treatment was due to their ethnicity.[73]

Asian American stereotypes can also obstruct career paths; because Asians are seen as better skilled in engineering, computing, and mathematics, they are often encouraged to pursue technical careers. They are also discouraged from pursuing non-technical occupations or executive occupations requiring more social interaction, since Asians are expected to have poor social skills. In the 2000 study, forty percent of those surveyed who experienced discrimination believed that they had lost hiring or promotion opportunities. In 2007, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission reported that Asians make up 10 percent of professional jobs, while 3.7 percent of them held executive, senior level, or manager positions.[73]

Other forms of discrimination include racial profiling and hate crimes. Research shows that discrimination has led to more use of informal mental health services by Asian Americans.[75] Asian Americans who feel discriminated against also tend to smoke more.[76]
Source

To say that everyone experiences discrimination, even white people, is missing the point of what I'm saying. The levels of discrimination experienced between people of color and white people are absolutely different- as we've demonstrated in the thread.

I think tomilay said it very well- the label may be poor, but the phenomenon exists. You may not want to call it "white privilege" for fear of demonization, but the result is real.

Also, I know I keep going back to Wikipedia, but dang they got everything there. This first few paragraphs on the subject are interesting:
Quote:White privilege (or white skin privilege) is a term for societal privileges that benefit people identified as white in Western countries, beyond what is commonly experienced by non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances. Academic perspectives such as critical race theory and whiteness studies use the concept of "white privilege" to analyze how racism and racialized societies affect the lives of white or white-skinned people.

According to Peggy McIntosh, whites in Western societies enjoy advantages that non-whites do not experience, as "an invisible package of unearned assets".[1] White privilege denotes both obvious and less obvious passive advantages that white people may not recognize they have, which distinguishes it from overt bias or prejudice. These include cultural affirmations of one's own worth; presumed greater social status; and freedom to move, buy, work, play, and speak freely. The effects can be seen in professional, educational, and personal contexts. The concept of white privilege also implies the right to assume the universality of one's own experiences, marking others as different or exceptional while perceiving oneself as normal.[2][3]

The concept has attracted attention and some opposition. Some critics say that the term uses the concept of "whiteness" as a proxy for class or other social privilege or as a distraction from deeper underlying problems of inequality.[4][5] Others state that it is not that whiteness is a proxy but that many other social privileges are interconnected with it, requiring complex and careful analysis to identify how whiteness contributes to privilege.[6] Critics of white privilege also propose alternative definitions of whiteness and exceptions to or limits of white identity, arguing that the concept of "white privilege" ignores important differences between white subpopulations and individuals and suggesting that the notion of whiteness cannot be inclusive of all white people.[7][8] They note the problem of acknowledging the diversity of people of color and ethnicity within these groups.[6] Conservative critics have offered more direct critiques of the concept; one writes that "today ... the lives of minorities are no longer stunted by prejudice and 'white privilege'",[9] while another says that the concept is an obstacle in the road to achieving an equal society.[10]

Gina Crosley-Corcoran in her Huffington Post article, "Explaining White Privilege to a Broke White Person", says that she was initially hostile to the idea that she had white privilege, initially believing, "my white skin didn't do shit to prevent me from experiencing poverty", until she was directed to read Peggy McIntosh's "Unpacking the invisible knapsack". According to Crosley-Corcoran, "the concept of intersectionality recognizes that people can be privileged in some ways and definitely not privileged in others".[11] Other writers have noted that the "academic-sounding concept of white privilege" sometimes elicits defensiveness and misunderstanding among white people, in part due to how the concept of white privilege was rapidly brought into the mainstream spotlight through social media campaigns such as Black Lives Matter.[12] Cory Weinburg, writing for Inside Higher Ed, has also stated that the concept of white privilege is frequently misinterpreted by non-academics because it is an academic concept that has been recently been brought into the mainstream. Academics interviewed by Weinburg, who have been otherwise studying white privilege undisturbed for decades, have been taken aback with the seemingly-sudden hostility from right-wing critics since 2014.[13]
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29-06-2017, 12:09 PM
Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:53 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  It is called white privilege. I would not be fixated on the choice of wording(a poor choice in my opinion) as much as the fact that the phenomenon it describes is real. Where one group enjoys a benefit of the doubt, another group endures a deficit of the same. Sometimes with deadly consequences.

That's right -- semantics aside, the phenomenon exists. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. Word-choice can be very important, but in this case, it isn't nearly as important as the disparate treatment of races in America -- no matter how one labels it.


Semantics and how it's labeled most certainly do matter. It's the problem that I have as it puts personal blame on every single white person.

I don't have any issues with discussing inequalities as a whole or on individual levels. They do exist. Don't blame everyone in my race for the problems. If you want to take personal blame for it then go right ahead.
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29-06-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 12:09 PM)KUSA Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:53 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  That's right -- semantics aside, the phenomenon exists. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. Word-choice can be very important, but in this case, it isn't nearly as important as the disparate treatment of races in America -- no matter how one labels it.


Semantics and how it's labeled most certainly do matter. It's the problem that I have as it puts personal blame on every single white person.

I don't have any issues with discussing inequalities as a whole or on individual levels. They do exist. Don't blame everyone in my race for the problems. If you want to take personal blame for it then go right ahead.

It's not blame. It's an acknowledgement of different experiences and the effect they have. I'm white. I have white privilege. Only once in my life have I walked into a store and had an employee obviously follow me around to make sure I wasn't going to steal something--and I was enraged and astonished to be treated so rudely. Happened once to me, but when I talked about it to my friends, I found my white friends similarly astonished. Not my black friends. This happened frequently to them. I don't feel personally responsible for the fact that my black friends got treated differently in stores than I did, but I can acknowledge the reality of their experience. They've routinely been treated more rudely, and that has an effect.
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29-06-2017, 12:32 PM
Does White Privilege Exist?
I'm not disagreeing with what's going on in general. I do have an issue with the label. It's wrong in my opinion. I guess we will have to disagree on that.
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29-06-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 12:08 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:56 AM)KUSA Wrote:  I see you like grouping everyone in a particular race together. That's discrimination. It makes ever white person guilty and every person of color a victim.

FYI I actually hate it.

Me too. But history is too strong to deny. Although race exists only as a concept it is a concept that people *act* on. We cannot ignore it and pretend to be "colour blind" and all that shit. Lives are fucked up by this unbelievably stupid skin-colour discrimination thing.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-06-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 08:15 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Stevil here exhibits an important example of white privilege, maybe inadvertently, even as he seems to be denying it (or somehow trying to justify it?).
It's a very fascinating tactic this.
To assert that if a white person denies the existence of white privilege then they are proving and exhibiting their white privilege by that denial.

It's just a win/win for the person asserting that white privilege does exist, their opponent must either admit it exists by saying so, or prove it exists by saying it doesn't exist. This tactic does make me chuckle.

I will admit that some people discriminate against various races of people, and I will admit that many people stereo type races. But I deny that whites have privileges over non whites. In fact it is often the opposite. Because of the misguided view that affirmative action is appropriate, it is often the case that other races have privileges that whites are denied.

(29-06-2017 08:15 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The idea that you will be judged, not on the reputation of your race, but as an individual. You are just you, as opposed to a prototype of whiteness.
I have often been judged based on the perception and stereo type of my race, my being a kiwi, my being a heavy metal fan, my being from the country rather than the city, I am judged all the time by people that don't really know me. It is human nature to group, stereotype and judge.


(29-06-2017 08:15 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In summary, you get to be yourself and not a representative of your race. You are judged for your actions or crimes, not the actions or crimes of a different individual in your race.
I think this is a bit fickle, makes many assumptions and is inaccurate. Everyone is judged in some way based on their race, even whites.
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