Does White Privilege Exist?
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29-06-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 01:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 12:08 PM)tomilay Wrote:  FYI I actually hate it.

Me too. But history is too strong to deny. Although race exists only as a concept it is a concept that people *act* on. We cannot ignore it and pretend to be "colour blind" and all that shit. Lives are fucked up by this unbelievably stupid skin-colour discrimination thing.

Yep. It is independent of what one likes. And it means different adaptations for the different groups. If you are used to petty indignities, you are likely to anticipate(subconsciously) to be treated badly. Not much different from a homely girl. The converse applies if you are used to being treated good. One could probably write tomes about the diversity of outcomes good and bad that this can have on an individual.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-06-2017, 02:36 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 01:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  Although race exists only as a concept it is a concept that people *act* on.
I think what is more significant than "race" is culture.

There are cultural differences which tend to be aligned to "races".
It is no secret that upbringing is a learned skill and gets transferred from parent to child so it is inherited.

There are many stereo types that have some truth to them when you look at a group, but also can fall apart when you look at an individual.

Scottish and Chinese are well known for being extremely tight with their money. Chinese view whites as being very wasteful, I'd guess that native americans may view whites as being very disrespectful to the environment. Chinese view indians as being cheeky and untrustworthy. Koreans don't like Chinese (for some reason, I can't remember why).

These generalisations exist. They are unfair to apply to an individual, they are not held just by whites and applied just to non whites. They do not indicate "white privilege" is something that is real.
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29-06-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 02:16 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 01:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  Me too. But history is too strong to deny. Although race exists only as a concept it is a concept that people *act* on. We cannot ignore it and pretend to be "colour blind" and all that shit. Lives are fucked up by this unbelievably stupid skin-colour discrimination thing.

Yep. It is independent of what one likes. And it means different adaptations for the different groups. If you are used to petty indignities, you are likely to anticipate(subconsciously) to be treated badly. Not much different from a homely girl. The converse applies if you are used to being treated good. One could probably write tomes about the diversity of outcomes good and bad that this can have on an individual.

These exact same principles also apply within a home between parents and children, siblings and extended relatives. I quite agree with you, it's almost a universal principle. In fact it may very well be universal.

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29-06-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 02:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 08:15 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Stevil here exhibits an important example of white privilege, maybe inadvertently, even as he seems to be denying it (or somehow trying to justify it?).
It's a very fascinating tactic this.
To assert that if a white person denies the existence of white privilege then they are proving and exhibiting their white privilege by that denial.

It's just a win/win for the person asserting that white privilege does exist, their opponent must either admit it exists by saying so, or prove it exists by saying it doesn't exist. This tactic does make me chuckle.

I will admit that some people discriminate against various races of people, and I will admit that many people stereo type races. But I deny that whites have privileges over non whites. In fact it is often the opposite. Because of the misguided view that affirmative action is appropriate, it is often the case that other races have privileges that whites are denied.

If you can convince me that affirmative action is actually a privilege extended to some groups for no prior reason, we might start to go somewhere with this perspective of affirmative action. My view is that it is an artifact of attempts to address the effects of discrimination in the first place.

Even with affirmative action in place, I am doubtful that the chances of a white person getting a job are worse or even equal to a black, all else being even. I have seen studies that even show a white person with a felony having the same chance of getting hired as a black person with a clean record, all else being even. Even with affirmative action.

(29-06-2017 02:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 08:15 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The idea that you will be judged, not on the reputation of your race, but as an individual. You are just you, as opposed to a prototype of whiteness.
I have often been judged based on the perception and stereo type of my race, my being a kiwi, my being a heavy metal fan, my being from the country rather than the city, I am judged all the time by people that don't really know me. It is human nature to group, stereotype and judge.

Okay. If you are consistently judged negatively on certain attributes, then that is a real thing. No?

(29-06-2017 02:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 08:15 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In summary, you get to be yourself and not a representative of your race. You are judged for your actions or crimes, not the actions or crimes of a different individual in your race.
I think this is a bit fickle, makes many assumptions and is inaccurate. Everyone is judged in some way based on their race, even whites.

I don't know what point you are attempting to make here. That this phenomenon is not real or that is a special case of a more general phenomenon. Suppose you work in a company with 99% white employees, what are the chances that your white race will be a negative factor in people's judgment of your ability?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-06-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 02:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 01:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  Although race exists only as a concept it is a concept that people *act* on.
I think what is more significant than "race" is culture.

There are cultural differences which tend to be aligned to "races".
It is no secret that upbringing is a learned skill and gets transferred from parent to child so it is inherited.

There are many stereo types that have some truth to them when you look at a group, but also can fall apart when you look at an individual.

Scottish and Chinese are well known for being extremely tight with their money. Chinese view whites as being very wasteful, I'd guess that native americans may view whites as being very disrespectful to the environment. Chinese view indians as being cheeky and untrustworthy. Koreans don't like Chinese (for some reason, I can't remember why).

These generalisations exist. They are unfair to apply to an individual, they are not held just by whites and applied just to non whites. They do not indicate "white privilege" is something that is real.

Yes, but those issues are separate from the concept of white privilege.

I'll agree that the term is bad- it was originally an academic term, not intended for widespread use where people will misunderstand or take offense. But now it's entered common usage, and it's best to fully understand the term rather than take offense to it.
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29-06-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 02:59 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I don't know what point you are attempting to make here. That this phenomenon is not real or that is a special case of a more general phenomenon. Suppose you work in a company with 99% white employees, what are the chances that your white race will be a negative factor in people's judgment of your ability?
Are we talking about "white privilege", "majority privilege" or "discrimination and stereotyping of minorities"?

I agree that "discrimination and stereotyping of minorities" is a thing.
I disagree that "white privilege" is a thing.

I wholeheartedly claim that affirmative action is institutionalised racism and creates privilege for those that it creates privileges for.
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29-06-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 03:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 02:59 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I don't know what point you are attempting to make here. That this phenomenon is not real or that is a special case of a more general phenomenon. Suppose you work in a company with 99% white employees, what are the chances that your white race will be a negative factor in people's judgment of your ability?
Are we talking about "white privilege", "majority privilege" or "discrimination and stereotyping of minorities"?

I agree that "discrimination and stereotyping of minorities" is a thing.
I disagree that "white privilege" is a thing.

I wholeheartedly claim that affirmative action is institutionalised racism and creates privilege for those that it creates privileges for.

The "discrimination and stereotyping of minorities" is the flip-side of "white privilege". This absence of the discrimination and stereotyping that negatively affects minorities is a thing.

Maybe you have evidence that affirmative action has evened, perhaps upended the playing field in the job market, against whites. Maybe you want to share this evidence.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-06-2017, 03:34 PM
Does White Privilege Exist?
Do people of color extend the white privilege to white people?
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29-06-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 03:34 PM)KUSA Wrote:  Do people of color extend the white privilege to white people?

Yes
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29-06-2017, 03:45 PM
Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 03:38 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 03:34 PM)KUSA Wrote:  Do people of color extend the white privilege to white people?

Yes


Now that's an interesting thing. So if I go in a Black owned and operated store I won't get eyed but a Black person would? Is that correct?
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