Does White Privilege Exist?
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29-06-2017, 03:46 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 03:20 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Maybe you have evidence that affirmative action has evened, perhaps upended the playing field in the job market, against whites. Maybe you want to share this evidence.
My concern with "affirmative action" is not restricted to its impact on whites.

I have provided twice in this thread my example where sick people in Malaysia seek out non Malay doctors.
My understanding of this was by being told by a Chinese person.
So now I have done a quick internet search

https://practicality.wordpress.com/2008/...-malaysia/
Quote:Given the bumiputra policy, there is a loss of selective pressure which leads to the decrease in mean ability of Malays as a whole. Contrast that with the Indians and Chinese who have to fight tooth and nail, who have to drag themselves to the front of the pack in order to get into the limited spaces in medical school (the rest of the quota being taken up by bumiputras). It’s a no-brainer. The Indians and Chinese who graduate from medical school must be really good. The Malays… not so sure.

Quote:It is hard to generalise. Given choice, I would select an Indian or Chinese doctor. I doubt the abilities of a Malay doctor and whenever seen by one, I still feel a Chinese or an Indian would have been better.

Quote:On a related note, I’ve noticed that in school, without the threat of tests or if the professors tell us what’s coming up, there’s much less willpower to study or understand a topic. This defect in knowledge inevitably shows up during work where one can no longer hide one’s deficiency. Maybe that’s why Malays (in Malaysia) have to gain working experience before they become good.

Quote:Sincerely speaking, being a Malaysian myself, I’d prefer a Chinese/Indian doctors, because they seem to really know what they are doing.

Quote:well being a doctor myself and working in the government hospital for the past 8 years , there is no doubt regarding the quality of the malay doctors. First without much effort and under the boomi quota, they walk through their medical school with ease and secondly they lack the brains ...

I also think this disadvantage the truly good Malay doctors. There are no doubt some very smart and great Malay doctors, but because the patients can't know which are good and which are not, they choose non Malay.
Having these "affirmative action" policies weakens the value of those that it seeks to improve. It creates more racial tension and stereotypes.
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29-06-2017, 04:07 PM (This post was last modified: 29-06-2017 04:21 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:56 AM)KUSA Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 11:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  It is called white privilege. I would not be fixated on the choice of wording(a poor choice in my opinion) as much as the fact that the phenomenon it describes is real. Where one group enjoys a benefit of the doubt, another group endures a deficit of the same. Sometimes with deadly consequences.


I see you like grouping everyone in a particular race together. That's discrimination. It makes ever white person guilty and every person of color a victim.

Bullshit and apple-butter. Simply reporting the state of race affairs in America is not liking to "group everyone in a particular race together".

Do you honestly think you've got it as hard as a black man? Sing me your blues, brotha -- what happened? Your 401k tanked? The little doggie with the pink bow shat on your carpet?

Tough times ... tough times. I'm sure there's a song in there.

Racism happens, from all races, unto all races. Pointing that out is not "liking" it, so perhaps you should salve your conscience in private. It so happens as an accident of history that here in America, having black skin means you don't have access to the same perks of society that white folk do.

No doubt that having mentioned your race, I'll be called racist too. As if your opinion matters.

(29-06-2017 12:09 PM)KUSA Wrote:  Semantics and how it's labeled most certainly do matter. It's the problem that I have as it puts personal blame on every single white person.

Not at all. I benefit from white privilege, but I did nothing to build it, and I do what I can to undermine it.

I wonder why you feel blame?

(29-06-2017 12:09 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I don't have any issues with discussing inequalities as a whole or on individual levels. They do exist. Don't blame everyone in my race for the problems. If you want to take personal blame for it then go right ahead.

The term "white privilege" does not blame every white person. It points out the social milieu in which we operate. As I said above, I did nothing to build the edifice, so I don't take the blame for its existence. I do, however, assume that it's my responsibility -- not as a white man, but as a human being -- to assist in its demise.

And part of that responsibility is making sure that I don't engage in denialism simply because I feel personally affronted. I've been passed over (in a way) on a job application because I was white. Rather than nurture butthurt about it, I reckoned that in that field -- firefighting -- the aim of ridding the service of the "old boy's club" (read: whites in charge hiring whites) that the courts put in place was more important than my personal feelings about the matter.

No one here is blaming every white person. Take a deep breath, and think about it a little.

(29-06-2017 12:32 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I'm not disagreeing with what's going on in general. I do have an issue with the label. It's wrong in my opinion. I guess we will have to disagree on that.

What's more important? Labels, or people?

By harping on the label given, you seem to indicate that the issue itself matters little to you.
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29-06-2017, 05:01 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 04:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 12:32 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I'm not disagreeing with what's going on in general. I do have an issue with the label. It's wrong in my opinion. I guess we will have to disagree on that.

What's more important? Labels, or people?

By harping on the label given, you seem to indicate that the issue itself matters little to you.
This seems entirely false to me.
I'm trying not to put words in KUSA's mouth, but to me there are two different issues.
There is the issue with the term "white privilege".

and there is the issue that the term "white privilege" is a placeholder for.

If a person takes issue with the term "white privilege" this does not mean they care less about the issue that this term is a placeholder for than the cares of the person who is happy to use the term "white privilege"

In fact, in my case, I feel the term "white privilege" adds confusion about the underlying issue and quite possibly leads towards solutions that don't actually address the root cause. Solutions such as "affirmative action" may make sense if you believe white people have extra privileges, but may make no sense if you believe that non whites, and their cultural upbringing or their overall public image, or their society grudge leads them towards not putting their all towards making the most of opportunities that are there for all.

So, personally I think the label is extremely important. If you get it wrong then you are not keen to address the real causes of the problem. You may not even understand the problem, I don't actually understand the problem very well, but my current opinion is that "white privilege" is certainly not the problem. So I am somewhat troubled by people who wholeheartedly take on "white privilege" as being the core of the problem. I think, while their efforts to resolve the problem comes from a kind place, they are unfortunately not solving the problem because they are not addressing the root cause.
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29-06-2017, 05:51 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 08:40 PM)JesseB Wrote:  @Dr H

I pretty much agree with you on many of your points. However I do think that KUSA and his video does also make some valid points, I wouldn't say that white privilege is bullshit, though I'm personally not a fan of the term itself
I agree with you there; I don't like the term, either.
But then I don't like a lot of currently hip terms that others seem to find perfectly adequate.
For example, I don't like the term "racism", because it lends credence to the idea that "race" is more than just a social construct.
I find "bigotry" to be more encompassing and more accurate.

Quote: the ideas with int it many of which are real problems even if in practice there are plenty of people of all races that do as well if not better than white people financially. How do I put it, you know that bit people keep mentioning about how subtle it is, like especially if you're not white, mixed race or well poor it's much easier to see but that doesn't mean people can't succeed in America. I think there's a problem that some people want to over extend the reach of racism or misrepresent what it is to be.... well it seems they want people to think like slavery is still around.
Not that slavery is still around, but... well, slavery is a pretty tough thing to put behind you, even if the actual practice is already several generations in the past. Part of reason behind the continual bickering and warfare in the Balkans harkens back to various ethnic groups having enslaved and/or oppressed other ethnic groups, sometimes nearly a thousand years ago.

Quote:It's not it seems like they try to take an unrealistic view and this isn't helpful to fixing the real issues here, all it does is serve as a platform for them to write off or justify their own racism towards others. As I've stated before the answer to racism is NOT more racism. BUT on the flip side others would point to KUSA's video and act like idk "racism is fixed" it's not fixed. Likely it will never be fixed, first inequality will always exist THAT is not an achievable goal in any way and the more extreme methods of trying to achieve that goal involve thought police and mass murder.
I don't know that "racism" will necessarily always be with us, but human beings are hard-wired with a certain amount of xenophobia -- fear of the "other" or the "outsider" from our own immediate group. That probably served the species well -- back when we were still living in trees.
Except, we ain't swinging through the trees anymore; we're civilized now. At least in theory, we should be able to overcome, or at least sublimate some of our baser genetic urges. If we don't, we risk going the way of the dodo. Social animals don't do well if they allow their society to break down. We have to learn to get along, or we will ultimately hand the world over to the ants and the cockroaches.

Quote:The real goal should be to not make everything blanket equal in outcome, but certainly help control, manage or mitigate the inequality (for instance removing the concept of inheritance to make the USA A true meritocracy, campaign finance reform to help prevent laws that favor the rich and their interests, finding some way to get cops to stop killing ever damn black person they see (an exaggeration but you get my meaning) and ensuring that everyone has a minimum standard of living that is acceptable and has access to proper medical care and the tools needed to allow them to achieve any goal they desire (education).
Agreed. Forcing "equal outcomes" is neither useful nor, probably, even possible. I doubt we can even define what that means, objectively.
What we should be striving for, as nearly as possible, is to provide equal opportunity and a level playing field.
The "level playing field" part is pretty important.


Quote:I find it interesting that KUSA's video mentions the drop out rates of black people vs white people without considering what really causes that discrepancy.
Same with the crime rate stats. Too many people look only at outcomes, and then draw causal assumptions from that. Ass-backwards.

Quote:The video assumes it's simply a cultural thing "lazy inner city poor people just dont' wanna get an education" bullshit I'd give my left fucking nut for a chance at college.
Yep. The "cultural thing" is only supportable if one considers poverty to be:
a) a culture and b) deliberately chosen.

And why does poverty exist at all, in the US, in the 21st century?
A nation with 4% of the world's population, that uses more than 25% of the world's resources, has no material excuse for the existence of poverty within its borders. But there are, of course, good political reasons for maintaining a poor underclass with few means of escaping their poverty. If nothing else, it assures a steady stream of recruits for the military.

Here's a couple of numbers: About 13% of the US population is black, but about 22% of the army is black.
That's now, with the all-volunteer army.
Back when the draft was last active (Vietnam) about 11% of the US population was black, and only 12% of the army was black.

If that isn't the epitome of "Can't find a job? Join the army", I don't know what is.

Quote:Fuck take em both give me college. PLEASE. It's not that simple poverty makes college fucking impossible for many/most and your more likely to be impoverished if you A was born in the US and B are not white. So no there's real stuff going on here and KUSA's video while having some good facts isn't illustrating the whole picture. But then the other side has plenty of misleading cherry picked data too and now you see why this is such a big issue. Step one to solving an issue is look at the problem objectively, no more lying to oneself or using cherry picked data and confirmation bias to hold on to your position (on EITHER side).
That's what "news" has become. No matter who you get it from it's skewed. Someone who takes their news from only one or two sources is guaranteed to be getting a skewed viewpoint. If you take it from a dozen sources, at least it makes you aware that the slanting is continually going on. I especially enjoy listening to or reading news about events in the US from the perspective of sources outside the US.
They have their own slants, sure, but they're so different from internal slants and spins that they tend to stick out a lot more.

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29-06-2017, 05:54 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 10:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yes, I agree with this. I'm not suggesting to lock up blacks in order to stop them comitting crimes, I am suggesting to look into the reasons why they commit crimes at a higher rate than other races (if that is the case, incarceration rates suggest it is). Address the reasons. Affirmative action does not address the reasons, it ignores them completely.

I submit that another possible view is not that blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than other races, but that they are incarcerated for their crimes at a higher rate than those convicted who are of other races.

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29-06-2017, 06:05 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 05:54 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 10:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yes, I agree with this. I'm not suggesting to lock up blacks in order to stop them comitting crimes, I am suggesting to look into the reasons why they commit crimes at a higher rate than other races (if that is the case, incarceration rates suggest it is). Address the reasons. Affirmative action does not address the reasons, it ignores them completely.

I submit that another possible view is not that blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than other races, but that they are incarcerated for their crimes at a higher rate than those convicted who are of other races.
This has already been brought up, and I agree that this is possibly a reason for it, although it isn't proven to be the reason for it.
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29-06-2017, 06:05 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 10:20 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 10:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's not an assertion, it's based off the incarceration facts.
I take your point though that perhaps certain races get hit with harsher penalties than others, but I don't know if this IS the case or whether it accounts entirely for this encarceration rate.

I was merely pointing this out because if the perception is that blacks commit crimes then perhaps people may be scared of those people or not give them the benefit of the doubt.

If this is what is happening, you can't simply scream out to non blacks to all of a sudden trust the blacks. The black community would do themselves a lot of favours by addressing the incarceration rates (if that is a problem), if this is possibly within their control. If blacks gain a reputation as being trustworthy and dependable then they might perhaps become favoured for jobs.

We need to compare apples with apples.
What happens when a black CEO crosses the line?

Do black judges come down as hard on black criminals as white judges do?
Do black police shoot black suspects as much as white police do?

Incarceration data is just that. Data. Information is created from data, however you lack the data to come to the claim you are making so no it is not a fact it is an assertion. For it to be a fact you would also have to have data on actual crime statistics, including crime that ends up neither being reported or convicted ect. Like rich people who commit crimes and get a bonus instead of a jail cell. And it does happen it's amazing you can't think of one example right off the top of your head cause it happens a LOT.

The thing is Justice is supposed to be blind. Yet we've never had that once in our country. IF justice were blind your incarceration numbers would allow for more meaningful information to be gleaned from it.

Edit^ For clarity what your incarceration numbers indicates is a higher number of CONVICTIONS and NOT a higher number of crimes COMMITTED. There is a difference and again that is what I take issue with in your claim.

When convicted of a crime, blacks are far more likely to be sentenced to prison than whites convicted of similar crimes. Also, blacks are more likely to be wrongfully convicted. So all incarceration rates tell you is how many people are in prison; they don't tell you why they're there, or if they belong there.

FWIW, here's some data:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/us/wr...ation.html

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files...sion_0.pdf

http://www.sentencingproject.org/publica...e-prisons/

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29-06-2017, 06:10 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 11:25 AM)KUSA Wrote:  Are Asians considered people of color?

The short answer is "yes".

Frequently.

The more precise answer is, "it depends what jurisdiction you're in".

The feds, states, counties, and even some municipalities all have different ideas of what counts as "race", what counts as "ethnicity", and which of either count as "persons of color".

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29-06-2017, 06:25 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 03:45 PM)KUSA Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 03:38 PM)Emma Wrote:  Yes

Now that's an interesting thing. So if I go in a Black owned and operated store I won't get eyed but a Black person would? Is that correct?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/29/opinions/i...index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtKIsSxNuCI

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29-06-2017, 06:32 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 06:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 05:54 PM)Dr H Wrote:  I submit that another possible view is not that blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than other races, but that they are incarcerated for their crimes at a higher rate than those convicted who are of other races.
This has already been brought up, and I agree that this is possibly a reason for it, although it isn't proven to be the reason for it.

See the link I posted to the National Registry of Exonerations study.

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