Does White Privilege Exist?
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30-06-2017, 06:01 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 05:16 AM)KUSA Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 03:32 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If all things being equal, and your skin tone determines at a glance whether or not you are given the benefit of the doubt, how is having a favorable skin tone not a privilege?


Are you saying that having a white skin tone is always favorable?

What morondog said.

Plus, I can tell you that I spent over 5 years going to a private art college right in the heart of a city metropolis, and I looked the part of an art major. Now I was and am pretty straight edge, but the school was filled with potheads. I took public transportation, so every day I had class I'd have to walk 20 minutes from the bus stop to class and back again. In those 5 years, looking and some times even smelling like an art school pothead, in the middle of downtown, never once was I ever stopped or harassed by a police officer.

Many of my classmates of color were not so lucky.

I don't know why I got a pass, but I strongly suspect that being white had a part to play in being extended the benefit of the doubt, a courtesy I also suspect was not similarly extended to my not-so-white classmates.

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30-06-2017, 09:31 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 03:23 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 10:30 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  (As an aside, do you think you could actually roll your further replies into one post, instead of breaking them up like you have here?
Oh FFS, I've gotta be honest, I really don't like trying to discuss topics with you.

I can't say I blame you. I'd hate to have to defend such views as yours against someone who has facts on his side.

If you need help working the forum's utilities ("quote" and "ignore" both suggest themselves here Smile), let me know. I'm here to help.
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30-06-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 03:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 03:20 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Maybe you have evidence that affirmative action has evened, perhaps upended the playing field in the job market, against whites. Maybe you want to share this evidence.
My concern with "affirmative action" is not restricted to its impact on whites.

I have provided twice in this thread my example where sick people in Malaysia seek out non Malay doctors.
My understanding of this was by being told by a Chinese person.
So now I have done a quick internet search

https://practicality.wordpress.com/2008/...-malaysia/
Quote:Given the bumiputra policy, there is a loss of selective pressure which leads to the decrease in mean ability of Malays as a whole. Contrast that with the Indians and Chinese who have to fight tooth and nail, who have to drag themselves to the front of the pack in order to get into the limited spaces in medical school (the rest of the quota being taken up by bumiputras). It’s a no-brainer. The Indians and Chinese who graduate from medical school must be really good. The Malays… not so sure.

Quote:It is hard to generalise. Given choice, I would select an Indian or Chinese doctor. I doubt the abilities of a Malay doctor and whenever seen by one, I still feel a Chinese or an Indian would have been better.

Quote:On a related note, I’ve noticed that in school, without the threat of tests or if the professors tell us what’s coming up, there’s much less willpower to study or understand a topic. This defect in knowledge inevitably shows up during work where one can no longer hide one’s deficiency. Maybe that’s why Malays (in Malaysia) have to gain working experience before they become good.

Quote:Sincerely speaking, being a Malaysian myself, I’d prefer a Chinese/Indian doctors, because they seem to really know what they are doing.

Quote:well being a doctor myself and working in the government hospital for the past 8 years , there is no doubt regarding the quality of the malay doctors. First without much effort and under the boomi quota, they walk through their medical school with ease and secondly they lack the brains ...

I also think this disadvantage the truly good Malay doctors. There are no doubt some very smart and great Malay doctors, but because the patients can't know which are good and which are not, they choose non Malay.
Having these "affirmative action" policies weakens the value of those that it seeks to improve. It creates more racial tension and stereotypes.

You say affirmative action creates a privilege for those it benefits. Asked for evidence if it negatively impacts a white person's job prospects, you just ignore the question and start talking about Malaysians and their doctors. Do you see why someone can have trouble holding a conversation with you?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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30-06-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 09:31 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 03:23 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Oh FFS, I've gotta be honest, I really don't like trying to discuss topics with you.

I can't say I blame you. I'd hate to have to defend such views as yours against someone who has facts on his side.

If you need help working the forum's utilities ("quote" and "ignore" both suggest themselves here Smile), let me know. I'm here to help.
The problem with discussions with you is evident in the garbage you have spewed above,, your personal attacks and arrogance in full view. It is that you are unwilling to listen to the other side, and rather than address the points the other side makes, you merely resort to attacking the person.

With regards o your actual points, they are very biased. Your point where you said "Now, being white, I was born to a family having more resources to hand" is just purely idiotic. Of course there are many whites who are born with less resources than many non whites. Your insistence that I need to be an American (again are you assuming all Americans are from USA? do you not count Canada, Alaska, Mexico as part of America also?) is just arrogant as well.
Topics can be more general that just how they apply in USA, especially when you are in discussion on an international forum with non USA citizens. It is really scrapping the bottom of the barrel to argue to someone "That is white privilege in America, and if you have not lived here, I don't regard you as qualified to opine intelligently on the matter." "But there it is. You let me know when you've moved to America and have become a member of an interracial family. "

Oh, and by the way, I am a member of an interracial family, My wife isn't white and hence my children are halfcast. But anyway, even that doesn't qualify me to say I know more than the next guy on the complex topic of racism and equal opportunity within a society. This is purely your attempt to discredit a person you are in disagreement with rather than to actually address the points made. You haven't asked anyone else, especially those supporting your beliefs in "white priviledge" for their qualifications have you?

As far as I take it, this is an open forum, it isn't an organisation of qualified social workers and psychologists trying to resolve social issues. It is normal people discussing their own views and opinions.
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30-06-2017, 01:38 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 11:25 AM)tomilay Wrote:  You say affirmative action creates a privilege for those it benefits. Asked for evidence if it negatively impacts a white person's job prospects, you just ignore the question and start talking about Malaysians and their doctors. Do you see why someone can have trouble holding a conversation with you?
Sorry, but the idea of "affirmative action" isn't specific to white people. I told you this and I addressed the topic of negative outcome to affirmative action.
I'm not sure why this is a problem for you.

Also- it is obvious that affirmative action creates a racist based privilege.
With regards to my school, a female Maori had the privilege of competing for the Female award and the Maori award, that is a privilege.
There was no White award and there was no male award.
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30-06-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 07:49 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I didn't realize that Black on Black hatred was that widespread. I don't see how this translates into White privilege.
In and of itself, it doesn't.
But you asked the question, and I felt it needed a response.

Quote: It sounds like they are inflicting damage to themselves.
Maybe so, in some regards. It is not unusual for oppressed people to have low self-esteem, which sometimes manifests as self-loathing.
But that has nothing to do with addressing the source of the oppression.

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30-06-2017, 02:09 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 09:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...and on this note, I don't know what it is that we are discussing, what is it that you mean when you say "White privilege", are you talking about blacks having people discriminating against them, Chinese having people discriminating against them, or are you talking about some special privileges whites have?

What are those privileges?

For one: The privilege of at least having a cop think twice before blowing you away during a routine traffic stop.

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30-06-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 01:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  (again are you assuming all Americans are from USA? do you not count Canada, Alaska, Mexico as part of America also?) is just arrogant as well.

I've been in fora where people have coined the term "USAans" just to be sure there was no confusion. But really, In this hemisphere, at least, when one hears or uses the term "American", it is pretty much understood that 99% of the time they are referring to the citizens, residents, and foibles of the USA. Even Canadians, Mexicans, and South Americans assume this. If it is different in your corner of the globe, that's news to me, but stranger things have happened.

BTW, Alaska is part of the United States of America -- the 49th state -- has been since 1959. Smile

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30-06-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(29-06-2017 04:04 AM)morondog Wrote:  Incidentally the two questions that I will be attempting to answer are the following:
  • Is there systematic discrimination in the US justice system?
  • Are black people denied economic and educational opportunities on the basis of skin colour?

Referring to this article for the first bit.

[Image: USA_2009._Percent_of_adult_males_incarce...nicity.png]
Firstly we can agree on the data.

Quote:According to a 2013 study conducted by the Pew Research Center, black men were six times as likely as white men to be incarcerated in 2010

Quote:A 2012 University of Michigan Law School study found that African Americans are given longer federal sentences even when factoring prior criminal records, and that African American jail sentences tend to be roughly 10% longer than white jail sentences for the same crimes.[35] The study found that Federal Prosecutors of African American and Hispanic defendants are almost twice as likely to push for mandatory minimum sentences, leading to longer sentences and disparities in incarceration rates for federal offenses.

Quote:While there is a correlation between blacks and Hispanics and crime, the data imply a much stronger tie between poverty and crime than crime and any racial group, when gender is taken into consideration.[62] The direct correlation between crime and class, when factoring for race alone, is relatively weak. When gender, and familial history are factored, class correlates more strongly with crime than race or ethnicity.[63][64] Studies indicate that areas with low socioeconomic status may have the greatest correlation of crime with young and adult males, regardless of racial composition, though its effect on females is negligible.[63][64] A 1996 study looking at data from Columbus, Ohio found that differences in disadvantage in city neighborhoods explained the vast majority of the difference in crime rates between blacks and whites,[65] and a 2003 study looking at violent offending among juveniles reached similar conclusions.[66]

Quote:Research suggests that police practices, such as racial profiling, over-policing in areas populated by minorities and in-group bias may result in disproportionately high numbers of racial minorities among crime suspects.[113][114][115][116] Research also suggests that there may be possible discrimination by the judicial system, which contributes to a higher number of convictions for racial minorities.[117][118][119][120][121] A 2012 study found that "(i) juries formed from all-white jury pools convict black defendants significantly (16 percentage points) more often than white defendants, and (ii) this gap in conviction rates is entirely eliminated when the jury pool includes at least one black member."[119] Research has found evidence of in-group bias, where "black (white) juveniles who are randomly assigned to black (white) judges are more likely to get incarcerated (as opposed to being placed on probation), and they receive longer sentences."[121] In-group bias has also been observed when it comes to traffic citations, as black and white cops are more likely to cite out-groups.[115] A 2016 paper by Roland G. Fryer, Jr, found that while there are no racial differences in lethal use of police force, blacks and Hispanics are significantly more likely to experience non-lethal use of force.[122] Reports by the Department of Justice have also found that police officers in Baltimore, Maryland, and Ferguson, Missouri, systemically stop, search (in some cases strip-searching) and harass black residents.[123][124] A January 2017 report by the DOJ also found that the Chicago Police Department had "unconstitutionally engaged in a pattern of excessive and deadly force" and that police "have no regard for the sanctity of life when it comes to people of color".[125]

In criminal sentencing, medium to dark-skinned African Americans are likely to receive sentences 2.6 years longer than those of whites or light-skinned African Americans. When a white victim is involved, those with more "black" features are likely to receive a much more severe punishment.[126]

I think we can pretty much disregard any further contentions that the justice system in America is *not* racially biased?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-06-2017, 03:19 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 11:25 AM)tomilay Wrote:  You say affirmative action creates a privilege for those it benefits. Asked for evidence if it negatively impacts a white person's job prospects, you just ignore the question and start talking about Malaysians and their doctors. Do you see why someone can have trouble holding a conversation with you?
Sorry, but the idea of "affirmative action" isn't specific to white people. I told you this and I addressed the topic of negative outcome to affirmative action.
I'm not sure why this is a problem for you.

Also- it is obvious that affirmative action creates a racist based privilege.
With regards to my school, a female Maori had the privilege of competing for the Female award and the Maori award, that is a privilege.
There was no White award and there was no male award.

I will go off the assumption that we both agree that affirmative action did not materialize out of thin air for nothing. That it attempts to address a condition borne of an uneven playing field in favor of whites(I assume this to be the case in NZ too).

Whether we agree it's right or wrong, that at least we understand the stated rationale , in a general sense, behind it. If we can't agree on such a set of facts, I'd be wasting your time on this engagement. And mine too.

You can argue that it is definitely a privilege looked at in isolation. So what? It's meaningless without context. In reality, you need to look at it in the context of the society in general. You cannot divorce it from the surrounding environment.

In the proper context, you can show that it is a privilege only by showing evidence that it creates an advantageous environment that trumps everything else - including the racialized views and opinions which you claim we all have - for those targeted to benefit from it, relative to the dominant demographic. I have seen your views of Maoris and I don't fancy their chances if that is common.

In America, studies have shown that a white person still enjoys advantageous access to opportunities in the job market relative to a black person, all else being even. Even with affirmative action. Even with a white person that has a criminal record to the black person's clean record.

Here is just such an example from one study in Milwaukee https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20...ployment/. I have seen many others with more or less the same result. If the stated rationale is to even the field of opportunities, affirmative action still does not do it. That is why your assertion that it's a privilege is only true in meaningless contexts.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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