Does White Privilege Exist?
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30-06-2017, 07:10 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 02:09 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(29-06-2017 09:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...and on this note, I don't know what it is that we are discussing, what is it that you mean when you say "White privilege", are you talking about blacks having people discriminating against them, Chinese having people discriminating against them, or are you talking about some special privileges whites have?

What are those privileges?

For one: The privilege of at least having a cop think twice before blowing you away during a routine traffic stop.
In NZ our traffic officers don't possess guns, so this point is invalid here.
With regards to your own country I'd think you are making great big assumptions. Is it police policy to shoot non whites for driving offenses?
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30-06-2017, 07:35 PM (This post was last modified: 30-06-2017 07:52 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I will go off the assumption that we both agree that affirmative action did not materialize out of thin air for nothing.
I agree that the idea of affirmative action has come about because some people thought it would help towards solving some kind of perceived issue.


(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  That it attempts to address a condition borne of an uneven playing field in favor of whites(I assume this to be the case in NZ too).
I actually don't know the history of "affirmative action"whether it was specifically an anti white thing or what, I don't know.'
But I do agree that there are significant numbers of people whom believe in "white privilege" and somehow think the solution to racial inequalities is to implement racist policies and awards and privileges. In many instances this may be giving privileges to non whites (in my school it was giving Maori the privilege above whites, chinese, indians and any other non Maori race you can think of.) It wasn't pushing Whites down below other races, it was giving Maori a privilege above all races of which White was only one of them. If they were addressing "White privilege" then they failed because they were also punishing Chinese, Indian and all the others.


(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Whether we agree it's right or wrong, that at least we understand the stated rationale , in a general sense, behind it. If we can't agree on such a set of facts, I'd be wasting your time on this engagement. And mine too.
I would agree that in this instance it was probably to address the issue of Maori not getting good grades(in general) and not necessarily going on to get higher education.


(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  You can argue that it is definitely a privilege looked at in isolation. So what?
It is implementing racism in order to combat perceived racism or racial disparity.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  It's meaningless without context.
It's not meaningless. It is actively seeking to implement racism. It actively creates racial tension. It is misguided.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  In reality, you need to look at it in the context of the society in general. You cannot divorce it from the surrounding environment.
This is like arguing that the result justifies the means.
I disagree with this completely. I also think this approach leads to more racial tension rather than reducing it. It does not solve the problem, it actually makes it worse.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I have seen your views of Maoris and I don't fancy their chances if that is common.
Most of my votes are for a Maori leader. He hasn't won yet, but I keep voting for him.
I also loved Moana movie for its focus on polyneasian music, myths and culture, I thought that was fantastic.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  In America, studies have shown that a white person still enjoys advantageous access to opportunities in the job market relative to a black person, all else being even. Even with affirmative action.
In my opinion the affirmative action makes it more likely that the other races will enjoy advantages. As per people preferring Chinese and Indian doctors over Malay doctors because they know the Malay doctors didn't need such high grades.
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30-06-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 03:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:While there is a correlation between blacks and Hispanics and crime, the data imply a much stronger tie between poverty and crime than crime and any racial group, when gender is taken into consideration.[62] The direct correlation between crime and class, when factoring for race alone, is relatively weak. When gender, and familial history are factored, class correlates more strongly with crime than race or ethnicity.[63][64] Studies indicate that areas with low socioeconomic status may have the greatest correlation of crime with young and adult males, regardless of racial composition, though its effect on females is negligible.[63][64] A 1996 study looking at data from Columbus, Ohio found that differences in disadvantage in city neighborhoods explained the vast majority of the difference in crime rates between blacks and whites,[65] and a 2003 study looking at violent offending among juveniles reached similar conclusions.[66]
This is quite interesting as it directly relates to crime rather than incarceration rates, it says that the crime rates are correlated to poverty rather than race.

So it seems to me that if one wants to try and solve the issue of crime one ought to focus on poverty issues rather than a perceived "white privilege". See how this works. Delve deeper than looking at skin colour, discover the root cause and focus on that.

With regards to the blacks being given 10% longer prison terms, that is something worth delving into more. Is it because of skin colour or is there a different correlation, perhaps a correlation towards poverty or something else?

I would not rush to assume that the judges are picking on the blacks. It might be the case that they are, but I would not rush to that conclusion.
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30-06-2017, 08:22 PM (This post was last modified: 30-06-2017 08:29 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 01:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 09:31 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I can't say I blame you. I'd hate to have to defend such views as yours against someone who has facts on his side.

If you need help working the forum's utilities ("quote" and "ignore" both suggest themselves here Smile), let me know. I'm here to help.
The problem with discussions with you is evident in the garbage you have spewed above,, your personal attacks and arrogance in full view. It is that you are unwilling to listen to the other side, and rather than address the points the other side makes, you merely resort to attacking the person.

No. What I've done is ask you what is the basis of your opinion. You've got none. You know nothing about the problem in America, which I've already made clear is what I'm discussing, yet you want to speak to me as if you know jack-shit ... from Kiwiland, based on your own experience ... which is entirely irrelevant to me.

It isn't arrogance on my part -- it is fairly pointing out that you really don't know what you're talking about. I can understand your discomfort. I really can. But the solution is not to shoot the messenger. The solution is to educate yourself on the issue before you make a fool of yourself publicly.

(30-06-2017 01:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  With regards o your actual points, they are very biased. Your point where you said "Now, being white, I was born to a family having more resources to hand" is just purely idiotic. Of course there are many whites who are born with less resources than many non whites. Your insistence that I need to be an American (again are you assuming all Americans are from USA? do you not count Canada, Alaska, Mexico as part of America also?) is just arrogant as well.

Since you're obviously having a problem with the nomenclature, I'll humor your sensitivities and use "USA". I had thought it would be plain by now that I wasn't talking about Canada or Mexico, given my previous posts, but apparently someone needs everything spelt out to a T. That someone would be you. And of course, I have already pointed out that not all whites are born into wealthier situations than non-whites.

I notice, however, you simply did not address the link I provided showing that blacks in Amer -- er, the USA generally earn about 30% less than whites.

ETA: what educated person doesn't know that Alaska is part of Amer- er, the USA?

(30-06-2017 01:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Topics can be more general that just how they apply in USA, especially when you are in discussion on an international forum with non USA citizens. It is really scrapping the bottom of the barrel to argue to someone "That is white privilege in America, and if you have not lived here, I don't regard you as qualified to opine intelligently on the matter." "But there it is. You let me know when you've moved to America and have become a member of an interracial family. "

Since you seem so hard of reading, I'll say it again: I only opine about things where I have good knowledge, direct knowledge, of them. So when Im' talking about white privilege here, I am talking about Ame -- er, the USA.

In stark contrast to someone else in this conversation, who seems very happy to simply paint broad swathes across borders with little regard to the sociocultural milieu on the ground -- and who then has the temerity to complain about my arrogance.

I have already invited you to speak about white privilege and racism in your little corner of the world. The fact that you choose to take this weak broadside at me rather than offer up substance to the conversation speaks volumes about you, Steve, and very little of it good.

(30-06-2017 01:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Oh, and by the way, I am a member of an interracial family, My wife isn't white and hence my children are halfcast. But anyway, even that doesn't qualify me to say I know more than the next guy on the complex topic of racism and equal opportunity within a society. This is purely your attempt to discredit a person you are in disagreement with rather than to actually address the points made. You haven't asked anyone else, especially those supporting your beliefs in "white priviledge" for their qualifications have you?

I'm discrediting your posts because they're insipid and narrow-cast without admitting such. If you would actually listen to what others elsewhere say about white privilege where they live, if you'd simply say, "I don't know about elsewhere, but ... " -- I'd sure give you a pass on the stuff you post. But because you have this pretense of understanding when you don't even realize your goldfish bowl is tiny indeed, your opinion is of course devalued. There are more blacks in America than there are people in NZ. And anyone with half a brain understands that the discussion about white privilege is centered here in America -- which only further underlines the unintentional humor of your question about "America or USA" ... as if anyone else beside you is confused.

So when you pretend to speak intelligibly about this issue from your abode, I understand that you're speaking to your conditions only. But I can, will, and do point out that your conditions aren't regnant, and your experiences aren't relevant to a context much larger than you've lived in.

Don't like it? Tough sledding, amigo. Ain't no one here to pet your little feelings and put them to bed.

(30-06-2017 01:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  As far as I take it, this is an open forum, it isn't an organisation of qualified social workers and psychologists trying to resolve social issues. It is normal people discussing their own views and opinions.

It's a pity that the only correct point in your post is such an obvious, banal observation.

Your opinion will be weighted and judged according to its insight.
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30-06-2017, 08:34 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There was no White award and there was no male award.

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why that might be?

No, you obviously haven't.
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30-06-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 07:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I will go off the assumption that we both agree that affirmative action did not materialize out of thin air for nothing.
I agree that the idea of affirmative action has come about because some people thought it would help towards solving some kind of perceived issue.


(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  That it attempts to address a condition borne of an uneven playing field in favor of whites(I assume this to be the case in NZ too).
I actually don't know the history of "affirmative action"whether it was specifically an anti white thing or what, I don't know.'
But I do agree that there are significant numbers of people whom believe in "white privilege" and somehow think the solution to racial inequalities is to implement racist policies and awards and privileges. In many instances this may be giving privileges to non whites (in my school it was giving Maori the privilege above whites, chinese, indians and any other non Maori race you can think of.) It wasn't pushing Whites down below other races, it was giving Maori a privilege above all races of which White was only one of them. If they were addressing "White privilege" then they failed because they were also punishing Chinese, Indian and all the others.


(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Whether we agree it's right or wrong, that at least we understand the stated rationale , in a general sense, behind it. If we can't agree on such a set of facts, I'd be wasting your time on this engagement. And mine too.
I would agree that in this instance it was probably to address the issue of Maori not getting good grades(in general) and not necessarily going on to get higher education.


(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  You can argue that it is definitely a privilege looked at in isolation. So what?
It is implementing racism in order to combat perceived racism or racial disparity.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  It's meaningless without context.
It's not meaningless. It is actively seeking to implement racism. It actively creates racial tension. It is misguided.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  In reality, you need to look at it in the context of the society in general. You cannot divorce it from the surrounding environment.
This is like arguing that the result justifies the means.
I disagree with this completely. I also think this approach leads to more racial tension rather than reducing it. It does not solve the problem, it actually makes it worse.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I have seen your views of Maoris and I don't fancy their chances if that is common.
Most of my votes are for a Maori leader. He hasn't won yet, but I keep voting for him.
I also loved Moana movie for its focus on polyneasian music, myths and culture, I thought that was fantastic.

(30-06-2017 03:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  In America, studies have shown that a white person still enjoys advantageous access to opportunities in the job market relative to a black person, all else being even. Even with affirmative action.
In my opinion the affirmative action makes it more likely that the other races will enjoy advantages. As per people preferring Chinese and Indian doctors over Malay doctors because they know the Malay doctors didn't need such high grades.

You've lost me.

I don't understand how you can spend so much energy in argumentation, on a subject in which you exhibit such limited curiosity that you don't even know the basic history.

I don't think you even bother to read links to studies that you dismiss on the basis of your opinion. Uninformed opinion.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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30-06-2017, 09:02 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 07:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Is it police policy to shoot non whites for driving offenses?

Are you so purblind as to think that only policy drives human actions?

Blind-spot spotted, ITT.
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30-06-2017, 09:51 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 08:22 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No. What I've done is ask you what is the basis of your opinion. You've got none. You know nothing about the problem in America,
I'm coming about the "white privilege" thing from a general perspective, not focused on USA at all, whatever makes you think my focus is USA?

Quote:It isn't arrogance on my part -- it is fairly pointing out that you really don't know what you're talking about. I can understand your discomfort.
And again the personal attacks, address the conversation and the points rather than getting personal. I have no interest in your opinion of me.

Quote:ETA: what educated person doesn't know that Alaska is part of Amer- er, the USA?
Not all educated people of the world take a particular interest in particular with regards to USA. There is much more to the world then your country. We are not aliens and we don't have to know much about your country. Issues such as guns and racial disparities and whatnot are global issues not USA issues.

Quote:I have already invited you to speak about white privilege and racism in your little corner of the world.
Again, arrogance and derision of people and places outside of USA.

Quote: The fact that you choose to take this weak broadside at me rather than offer up substance to the conversation speaks volumes about you, Steve, and very little of it good.
I have no interest in talking about you or your opinion of me, I am only interested in talking about the topic. The OP asked if we thought "white privilege"is a thing. I am of the opinion that it is not.


Quote: If you would actually listen to what others elsewhere say about white privilege where they live,
I have listened and I disagree with the opinions so far of people that have drawn the conclusions that whites have some special privilege.
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30-06-2017, 10:03 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 08:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There was no White award and there was no male award.

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why that might be?

No, you obviously haven't.
I'm of the opinion that we ought to be fair to all.
If we are going to go down the path of having special awards for top Maori students then we ought to also have awards for top White students.

But of course if we do that, people like you will cry out about this being racist.

It's funny how you focus on whites, why don't we have special chinese awards or indian awards?
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30-06-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 07:47 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I would not rush to assume that the judges are picking on the blacks. It might be the case that they are, but I would not rush to that conclusion.

I find it somewhat weird that you're willing to go *so* far to give these judges the benefit of the doubt but even with the stats on their side, you're not willing to do the same for black people who're given this skewed justice.

Let's say however that you're right, can we agree then that since poverty is more the driving factor than race in this issue, that measures should be taken to address that poverty?

I haven't yet thrown the data at you for racially skewed access to the job market, but let's for the moment assume that black people do have less access given the same qualifications and experience, can you agree that if this is the case then to address this some kind of policy is needed? You know, like affirmative action?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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