Does White Privilege Exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-07-2017, 02:55 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 10:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  I find it somewhat weird that you're willing to go *so* far to give these judges the benefit of the doubt but even with the stats on their side, you're not willing to do the same for black people who're given this skewed justice.
I'm just not willing to jump to conclusions.
I do agree that racism exists. How institutionlised that is, I'm unsure of.
Is this more likely in certain places, Bible belt in USA rather than Auckland NZ, probably from what I hear about USA southern states and from movies and tv shows that I have seen.

I don't deny that racism is a thing.
But where racism is a thing, I wouldn't default to call racism against a certain race to be "white privilege". The term is disingenuous. Everyone loses out with racism. If you are to say that only one race "white being a race?" wins then you can't simply point to poor stats for blacks, you would also need to point out poor stats for every non white race.

(30-06-2017 10:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  Let's say however that you're right, can we agree then that since poverty is more the driving factor than race in this issue, that measures should be taken to address that poverty?
Well, yeah, I see poverty as a huge issue. I'm all for free healthcare and free schools and certain schemes to help people get into the workforce. I'm for child support and family planning.


(30-06-2017 10:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  I haven't yet thrown the data at you for racially skewed access to the job market, but let's for the moment assume that black people do have less access given the same qualifications and experience, can you agree that if this is the case then to address this some kind of policy is needed? You know, like affirmative action?
I would never support affirmative action. You can't fix racism and racial inequities by implementing racist policies. It will only make matters worse.
But if there is an issue, I'm all for investigating it to find out what the root of the problem is? Why aren't that race getting the jobs? Is it a problem with qualifications or hiring? Is it a problem with public perception of that demographic? What is the issue and then work out how that can be addressed.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2017, 03:06 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 02:55 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 10:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  I haven't yet thrown the data at you for racially skewed access to the job market, but let's for the moment assume that black people do have less access given the same qualifications and experience, can you agree that if this is the case then to address this some kind of policy is needed? You know, like affirmative action?
I would never support affirmative action. You can't fix racism and racial inequities by implementing racist policies. It will only make matters worse.
But if there is an issue, I'm all for investigating it to find out what the root of the problem is? Why aren't that race getting the jobs? Is it a problem with qualifications or hiring? Is it a problem with public perception of that demographic? What is the issue and then work out how that can be addressed.

Please, by all means, if you have a better solution to the problem of 'racist white people refusing to hire qualified minorities' without forcing a quota on them, be my guest.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
01-07-2017, 04:58 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 03:06 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 02:55 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I would never support affirmative action. You can't fix racism and racial inequities by implementing racist policies. It will only make matters worse.
But if there is an issue, I'm all for investigating it to find out what the root of the problem is? Why aren't that race getting the jobs? Is it a problem with qualifications or hiring? Is it a problem with public perception of that demographic? What is the issue and then work out how that can be addressed.

Please, by all means, if you have a better solution to the problem of 'racist white people refusing to hire qualified minorities' without forcing a quota on them, be my guest.

But EK, you don't seem to realize that demanding studies on top of studies on top of the many studies that have been done already, rather than action is "a better solution"

...if the intent is to keep people who face discrimination pacified and not complaining too much while Stevil profits from the status quo. What's the problem with waiting a few more decades, until all the decision makers are agreed about what to do, and we've found a solution that won't inconvenience even a single white person?

Facepalm
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like julep's post
01-07-2017, 05:06 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Yes. Dodgy

living word
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like houseofcantor's post
01-07-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 02:55 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 10:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  I find it somewhat weird that you're willing to go *so* far to give these judges the benefit of the doubt but even with the stats on their side, you're not willing to do the same for black people who're given this skewed justice.
I'm just not willing to jump to conclusions.
I do agree that racism exists. How institutionlised that is, I'm unsure of.
Is this more likely in certain places, Bible belt in USA rather than Auckland NZ, probably from what I hear about USA southern states and from movies and tv shows that I have seen.

I don't deny that racism is a thing.
But where racism is a thing, I wouldn't default to call racism against a certain race to be "white privilege". The term is disingenuous. Everyone loses out with racism. If you are to say that only one race "white being a race?" wins then you can't simply point to poor stats for blacks, you would also need to point out poor stats for every non white race.

Um. I think white privilege per se is a thing. In South Africa you don't have to look far, it was actually enshrined into law. Same in the United States and Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). There were laws making the best places to live and the best facilities available to white people. Apartheid went even further, demarcating race-based zones where "coloured" "Indian (Asian)" or "black" people could live. Admittedly USA never got as far as that in terms of laws but I understand it was the case de facto - another claim which can be easily checked. Those things take decades to change - still in South Africa, 20 years after apartheid ended, people live in those deliberately segregated communities.

This is an example of racism and it is also an example of white people taking the best for themselves - privilege in other words. This is excluding the privileges which are granted to them socially, such as the legal discrimination we've already looked at. I don't see the term as disingenuous in the least. Put yourself in the shoes of someone of colour. They see white people getting the best of everything *and* quibbling about some stupid word definition when challenged.

Quote:
(30-06-2017 10:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  Let's say however that you're right, can we agree then that since poverty is more the driving factor than race in this issue, that measures should be taken to address that poverty?
Well, yeah, I see poverty as a huge issue. I'm all for free healthcare and free schools and certain schemes to help people get into the workforce. I'm for child support and family planning.
Right, and so now is it legitimate of the government to take action when the problem is not *just* poverty but also racial tension and racist hiring policies? Is it not legitimate to also have a policy to address the racism?

Quote:
(30-06-2017 10:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  I haven't yet thrown the data at you for racially skewed access to the job market, but let's for the moment assume that black people do have less access given the same qualifications and experience, can you agree that if this is the case then to address this some kind of policy is needed? You know, like affirmative action?
I would never support affirmative action. You can't fix racism and racial inequities by implementing racist policies. It will only make matters worse.
But if there is an issue, I'm all for investigating it to find out what the root of the problem is? Why aren't that race getting the jobs? Is it a problem with qualifications or hiring? Is it a problem with public perception of that demographic? What is the issue and then work out how that can be addressed.

See, this is where we're gonna differ. Firstly, the discrimination in itself is a crime, we are agreed? Secondly the effects of that discrimination continue to be felt years after it is illegal to actually actively discriminate, and not only that the law is only as strong as the will to enforce it, so sometimes (see: D. Trump) people get away with racist bullshit years after it's been made illegal. Thirdly there's no redress for the crime. No restitution. I see affirmative action as perhaps an ineffective tool for addressing the base issue, but an *essential* PR stunt, if you will. Plus ya know, the effectiveness of affirmative action can be evaluated. Pretty sure I could dig up some studies...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
01-07-2017, 02:04 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2017 02:11 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 08:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Um. I think white privilege per se is a thing. In South Africa you don't have to look far, it was actually enshrined into law.
Yes, South Africa had apartheid, USA had slavery and segregation (I watched Hidden Figures last night, Blacks only seats on buses, blacks only toilets, blacks only schools, blacks couldn't be engineers etc).
I feel that there is a high likelihood that many USA republicans are keen to undo everything Obama did, in order to erase the fact they had a Black president.

(01-07-2017 08:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  This is an example of racism and it is also an example of white people taking the best for themselves
It is an example of some white people, perhaps even some non white, non black people too.
but, lets not forget that the majority of USA did actually vote for Obama.

(01-07-2017 08:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Right, and so now is it legitimate of the government to take action when the problem is not *just* poverty but also racial tension and racist hiring policies? Is it not legitimate to also have a policy to address the racism?
Yes, it is legitimate to combat racism. I support laws against racist policies favouring one race over others.

(01-07-2017 08:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  See, this is where we're gonna differ. Firstly, the discrimination in itself is a crime, we are agreed? Secondly the effects of that discrimination continue to be felt years after it is illegal to actually actively discriminate, and not only that the law is only as strong as the will to enforce it, so sometimes (see: D. Trump) people get away with racist bullshit years after it's been made illegal. Thirdly there's no redress for the crime. No restitution. I see affirmative action as perhaps an ineffective tool for addressing the base issue, but an *essential* PR stunt, if you will. Plus ya know, the effectiveness of affirmative action can be evaluated. Pretty sure I could dig up some studies...
As per the Malay doctor outcome I think affirmative action creates resentment and mistrust along racial lines. In South Africa you had quotas for black people in your national rugby team, this created mistrust on whether the black person was in there on merit or as a token black. It could have gone further towards hatred of blacks if whites who were passionate bout rugby thought the black caused the team to lose and lets not forget about the person who genuinely deserved the spot through having superior talent and hard work but missed out due to this quota system and their own skin not being black.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2017, 02:14 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2017 02:23 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 03:06 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Please, by all means, if you have a better solution to the problem of 'racist white people refusing to hire qualified minorities' without forcing a quota on them, be my guest.
I'm not suggesting that I am the expert on this.
But my view is to create opportunities and reduce racial tension.
I'd make Affirmative action against the law.
I'd make race based organisations against the law, no more whites only golf clubs, no more Maori only rugby teams, no more Maori seats in parliament.
I'd ensure there are free quality schools.
I'd work with Maori leaders regarding reasons why some Maori don't make the most of school.

What would you do?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2017, 02:27 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 02:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 03:06 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Please, by all means, if you have a better solution to the problem of 'racist white people refusing to hire qualified minorities' without forcing a quota on them, be my guest.
I'm not suggesting that I am the expert on this.
But my view is to create opportunities and reduce racial tension.
I'd make Affirmative action against the law.
I'd make race based organisations against the law, no more whites only golf clubs, no more Maori only rugby teams, no more Maori seats in parliament.
I'd ensure there are free quality schools.
I'd work with Maori leaders regarding reasons why some Maori don't make the most of school.

None of that addresses the here-and-now the problem of racial prejudice in hiring practices for people looking for jobs right now.

Do you want to know of one of the ways to combat generational poverty? Ensuring that minority parents have some access to the same economic opportunities of their white peers, allowing them to pass those advantages onto their own minority children, in order to help puts things on track and headed towards parity.

Will that mean that in some instances, more qualified white job seekers will be passed over to fill quotas? Yes. Can that cause resentment? Yes. But that's the price we have to pay to get the white masses to stop being afraid of working with 'the darkies'. So that later, when you potentially removes the quotas, they won't just go straight back to hiring only people who 'look like them', because now the workforce is more diverse, with more minorities in positions of power, some even in charge of hiring new people.

We're evolutionary predisposed to in-group favoritism, and sometimes society needs a swift kick in the ass to get us over our own hangups, for the betterment of society as a whole. Yes, some people will be left with the short end of the stick, but overall everyone benefits more from increased cultural diversity over hegemony.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like EvolutionKills's post
01-07-2017, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2017 02:42 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 09:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm coming about the "white privilege" thing from a general perspective, not focused on USA at all, whatever makes you think my focus is USA?

Ah, I see. Presumably your generalities address the specifics of each culture's racial issues? Or each nation's history?

White privilege takes many different guises based on the culture we're discussing, and that culture's history. Maybe in NZ you don't actually have much white preference built into your society. As I've said a couple of times, I am addressing my experience with it, here in Amer -- uh, the USA. I don't deign to speak about issues in your country, because I don't much follow them and cannot speak intelligently on your local issues.

(30-06-2017 09:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  And again the personal attacks, address the conversation and the points rather than getting personal. I have no interest in your opinion of me.

Tough shit, I'll speak my opinion anyway. And you don't seem to have noticed that I have addressed the issues. I wonder why you won't acknowledge that? Do I need to go back through the thread and gather a compendium of those moments? Or -- maybe you need to go back and read what I've written. I've already pointed out your selective reading, and I would rather not have to embarrass you by links and such. But if you ask nicely, I will.

(30-06-2017 09:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Not all educated people of the world take a particular interest in particular with regards to USA. There is much more to the world then your country. We are not aliens and we don't have to know much about your country. Issues such as guns and racial disparities and whatnot are global issues not USA issues.

But we are here discussing white privilege, and I have already made it clear that I am discussing it in Amer -- er, the USA. You wish to apply your generalities to a country you not only haven't visited, but cannot even delineate? It's as if I were to discuss Brexit without knowing Scotland is a part of the UK, or knowing their stance. Wouldn't you mark down my opinion based on my demonstrated ignorance? I know I would, in your shoes.

(30-06-2017 09:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Again, arrogance and derision of people and places outside of USA.

As the rest of the thought made clear, the fact is that our milieu is so large that even the minority suffering non-privilege has a larger population than your entire country. I'm not deriding NZ for being small. I'm deriding your opinion as being based on a small sample -- hence, "little country".

(30-06-2017 09:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I have no interest in talking about you or your opinion of me, I am only interested in talking about the topic. The OP asked if we thought "white privilege"is a thing. I am of the opinion that it is not.

And I think your opinion is uninformed. I also think that you value your opinion based on your own experiences without taking into account the experiences of others who live elsewhere and see white preference in action. Or it may be that being white yourself, your filters don't let in the entire picture, I don't know. Or it may be that living in a country that doesn't have a 350-year history of slavery in its earliest history, you are seeing an entirely different phenomenon than what exists here, but because you don't see the fallout, you don't consider it real. I don't know. I do know that your opinion doesn't apply here. White privilege exists here in Ameri -- er, the USA, without a shadow of a doubt


(30-06-2017 09:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I have listened and I disagree with the opinions so far of people that have drawn the conclusions that whites have some special privilege.

No, you haven't listened. You've issued denials about its existence here in America, but you've discounted the opinions of both white and black Americans telling you otherwise.

You say it doesn't exist. I see it daily. It affects both me, my biracial son, my brother-in-law, and my biracial nieces and nephew. It is borne out by systemic studies of racial disparities in income, job opportunities, educational opportunities, and treatment in the justice system here in America.

You say it doesn't exist. It may not exist in Kiwiland. But it damned sure exists here, and for all your criticizing me for arrogance, there is a big streak of arrogance in you telling me what I do and don't see every day here.

Sorry if that rustles your jimmies.

Well, actually I'm not. It seems they need a little rustling.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
01-07-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 02:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  but overall everyone benefits more from increased cultural diversity over hegemony.
Sure, but everyone loses when we have racist policies.
So creating a false environment does not solve the problem. Implementing more racist policies does not solve racism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: