Does White Privilege Exist?
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01-07-2017, 03:04 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
And on the flip of the
Malaysian avoiding Malay doctors due to perception that the privileges mean that less qualified Malay doctors get through.

Do we have people avoiding White doctors because of a perception of White privilege meaning that on average white doctors are less qualified?
I'd say the answer is no, people don't believe that the white doctors got their licence to practice as a privilege, they instead accept that these doctors are properly qualified.
Just as they would accept any race of doctor where affirmitive action has not benefited them.
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01-07-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 02:38 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  ...
Sorry, Thump, I'v decieded to ignore your posts in this thread.
I haven't read your last one, don't know if it has any valid points in it or not. I'm not going to read it, because I really don't like the personal attacks you resort to and if I were to meet you in real life I give you a wide birth, I'm not going to waste my time with people like that.
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01-07-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 10:03 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 08:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why that might be?

No, you obviously haven't.
I'm of the opinion that we ought to be fair to all.
If we are going to go down the path of having special awards for top Maori students then we ought to also have awards for top White students.

But of course if we do that, people like you will cry out about this being racist.

It's funny how you focus on whites, why don't we have special chinese awards or indian awards?

Here in Amer -- er, the USA -- whites have had the lever of power in their hands, and blacks were subjected to chattel slavery for over three centuries. And the fallout from that disparity in power resounds through the decades, whether or not you personally know about it -- and you obviously don't.

It stands to reason, to me, then, that redress in the form of some prerogatives would help to counteract the influence of centuries of inequity.

As I noted earlier, I was essentially washed out of a firefighting job or two based on a court-ordered redress demanding that minorities be fairly represented in applicant pools. I could have taken to the then-young Internet and hollered to high heaven about unfairness, but given the unfairness doled out to minorities to this day, I saw the slight delivered me, while personally bitter, to be wholesome for the greater good, and so simply moved on to other opportunities open to me -- which, by the way, I still was favored for the many endemic reasons whites are favored in the job market -- education, available resources, and so on.

If I stub my toe on a battlefield, my shrieks seem mighty small compared to someone who has lost a limb, or even life. I would just as soon bite the bullet and hope the society comes out the better for it, rather than bemoaning my fate and being one more job for an already-overworked medico.
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01-07-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 03:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 02:38 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  ...
Sorry, Thump, I'v decieded to ignore your posts in this thread.
I haven't read your last one, don't know if it has any valid points in it or not. I'm not going to read it, because I really don't like the personal attacks you resort to and if I were to meet you in real life I give you a wide birth, I'm not going to waste my time with people like that.

I can't say I blame you. I wouldn't bring a knife to a gunfight either.

That won't, however, stop me from taking your posts apart. Whether or not you reply to me is irrelevant. I will continue to reply to you, and do so in the knowledge that you will not, or can not, answer my posts. Good stuff, brah. Carry on!
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01-07-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 02:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In South Africa you had quotas for black people in your national rugby team, this created mistrust on whether the black person was in there on merit or as a token black. It could have gone further towards hatred of blacks if whites who were passionate bout rugby thought the black caused the team to lose and lets not forget about the person who genuinely deserved the spot through having superior talent and hard work but missed out due to this quota system and their own skin not being black.

The black guys who're on our rugby team at the moment are very much there on merit. Also although the quota thing has been a stated goal of SARU for years, even this year when the coach was explicitly hired on the basis of meeting the quota, he was not able to meet the quota. And those poor white guys who have the talent to make the team but don't get picked... well ya know, you guys have plenty of talented people who don't make your rugby team? What do they do? Do they spend their lives crying or do they get on with other stuff? I don't think it's a terrible hardship. Many of them go and play overseas to the benefit of overseas teams and their own wallets, and general consternation back home.

Anyway, here's a question for you then: so you support making racist hiring illegal but you don't want any such thing as incentivising hiring of black guys? Now tell me, how will you prosecute against racist hiring policies? Say that you have a company that has an all-white board, and 99% white employees except for a token tea lady. You suspect them of racism but they claim that there is no racism, only the white candidates that applied for the jobs they offered are strictly the best. The absolute best. Should you take them at their word? Have an independent audit of their hiring process?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-07-2017, 03:47 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Also let's agree what we're talking about with affirmative action. The process here in SA is rather well thought out, I think. Namely there's no explicit requirement to hire a person of colour for any job, but a company gets "diversity points" for having a workforce composed of multiple races. The diversity points don't count for anything per se, except that government contracts specify that companies tendering for them must satisfy a certain level of points, and any subcontractors the same. Small businesses are exempt from the scheme - they automatically count as having maximum diversity points. In practice almost all companies do participate in the scheme.

That way there is an incentive towards hiring what the government terms "previously disadvantaged" groups, but there's no requirement that if your white guy is the best qualified for the job you can't hire him.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-07-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 03:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  The black guys who're on our rugby team at the moment are very much there on merit. Also although the quota thing has been a stated goal of SARU for years, even this year when the coach was explicitly hired on the basis of meeting the quota, he was not able to meet the quota. And those poor white guys who have the talent to make the team but don't get picked... well ya know, you guys have plenty of talented people who don't make your rugby team?
It doesn't make sense to look at a guy notice his white skin, and then say Oh well, too bad, we already have too many whites on the team, don't cry, you are a privileged whitey.

This is a person, an individual, who has worked very hard, why disadvantage him?
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01-07-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 03:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 03:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  The black guys who're on our rugby team at the moment are very much there on merit. Also although the quota thing has been a stated goal of SARU for years, even this year when the coach was explicitly hired on the basis of meeting the quota, he was not able to meet the quota. And those poor white guys who have the talent to make the team but don't get picked... well ya know, you guys have plenty of talented people who don't make your rugby team?
It doesn't make sense to look at a guy notice his white skin, and then say Oh well, too bad, we already have too many whites on the team, don't cry, you are a privileged whitey.

This is a person, an individual, who has worked very hard, why disadvantage him?

I'm not personally too sold on quotas, but I'm not opposed to them either. If you'd stop moaning for a second and consider that the symbolism is also important you might see why it'd be helpful. A lily-white rugby team might be marginally better, but rugby was practically a symbol of white supremacy during apartheid. The fact that they didn't disband the national side was considered a great step in healing race relations, but keeping it as it was was simply not an option politically.

Anyway, this is a sidetrack from the main conversation. The people who don't make the team will survive. Just like people who don't make your rugby team survive. Hurt feelings and all.

Meantime please respond re how to fairly get people to participate in the economy when they've been discriminated against in some cases for centuries, *without* an affirmative action policy. Bearing in mind that those who're currently in business are not particularly inclined to help you out - they're not gonna miraculously turn into equal opportunity employers - they're gonna do their damndest to keep that white privilege thing which doesn't exist going.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-07-2017, 04:11 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 03:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 03:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  The black guys who're on our rugby team at the moment are very much there on merit. Also although the quota thing has been a stated goal of SARU for years, even this year when the coach was explicitly hired on the basis of meeting the quota, he was not able to meet the quota. And those poor white guys who have the talent to make the team but don't get picked... well ya know, you guys have plenty of talented people who don't make your rugby team?
It doesn't make sense to look at a guy notice his white skin, and then say Oh well, too bad, we already have too many whites on the team, don't cry, you are a privileged whitey.

This is a person, an individual, who has worked very hard, why disadvantage him?

Perhaps a society has in mind a larger goal than the individual? Just a thought.
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01-07-2017, 06:09 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 03:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  Anyway, here's a question for you then: so you support making racist hiring illegal but you don't want any such thing as incentivising hiring of black guys?
Yes, those two things are the same thing. Incentivising blacks is a racist hiring practice.

(01-07-2017 08:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Now tell me, how will you prosecute against racist hiring policies? Say that you have a company that has an all-white board, and 99% white employees except for a token tea lady. You suspect them of racism but they claim that there is no racism, only the white candidates that applied for the jobs they offered are strictly the best. The absolute best. Should you take them at their word? Have an independent audit of their hiring process?
It would be a difficult thing to prove, I agree.
It would come down to complaints laid, probably by people that have attempted to be hired and have noticed that less qualified white candidates won the job above them. It would need to be investigated and go through the courts.
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