Does White Privilege Exist?
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02-07-2017, 02:46 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2017 02:56 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Also, lets be real here, removal of affirmative action measures does not automatically instill a perfect meritocracy.

If you have 20 job openings, it's entirely possible that the 20 objectively best candidate also happen to be all white. But insofar as institutionalized racism is concerned (like the Jim Crow south and it's aftermath), it's also possible that those 20 jobs will go to the 20 best white candidates without consideration for how well qualified applicants of color are. Eliminating affirmative action alone doesn't turn the situation into a perfect meritocracy.

But isn't that illogical and detrimental to the company doing the hiring? Yes. Turns out, racism tends to be illogical.

But can't affirmative action also force them to take on potentially less qualified people as well? Yep. Doesn't that make it equally as bad? No. Since when did denying economic opportunities to minorities have parity with trying to balance the playing field?


If the best medical schools only accept the best applicants, it will almost inevitably mean selecting only from the most well off and well to do, those who could supply their children with every advantage while growing up; and that will almost always be white. Now you can hide the clear disparity in economic opportunity behind the call of meritocracy, ignoring all of the institutionalized poverty and segregation that has stacked the deck against students of color; but you cannot pretend with a straight face that the situation is anything close to 'equality'. So yeah, you establish quotas, you makes those schools have to take a certain amount of minority applicants; ones who otherwise would be passed over in favor white applicants. You gave them a chance at the same opportunity, in an effort to shuffle the deck that is stacked against them. Now so long as they can do their work, pass their classes, and meet the qualifications needed to practice in their field? Then we're all better off having a few doctors of color, even if they're not the best possible doctors we could have. Because they'll have better access to opportunities for themselves and their children, putting them in a better place so that eventually we can do away with quotas once the scales are able to balance themselves, and students of color have just as much opportunity (one might even call that, equal opportunity) as their whiter counterparts to get a good education and a shot at college and a good paying job.

But you don't fix that problem by asking nicely.

You don't fix the disparity of opportunity without creating opportunity for those who otherwise wouldn't get it.

You cannot correct the skewed playing field created by institutionalized racism and segregation by refusing to ever touch the balance on the field.

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02-07-2017, 03:47 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 01:47 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 06:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Let's take gays for example.
Catholic schools won't hire gay teachers.
You could then say that heterosexual teachers enjoy heterosexual privilege...

Nope. You couldn't. This is not a case of hetero privilege, but one of homosexual oppression and/or persecution. Two different things altogether.
These guys are arguing that oppression of blacks = white privilege. They think it is one and the same.
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02-07-2017, 03:51 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:47 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 01:47 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Nope. You couldn't. This is not a case of hetero privilege, but one of homosexual oppression and/or persecution. Two different things altogether.
These guys are arguing that oppression of blacks = white privilege. They think it is one and the same.

I wouldn't say that heterosexual teachers enjoy privilege so much as Religious Schools enjoy being allowed to legally discriminate, because of bullshit religious faith exemptions.

It's just not a good analogy.

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02-07-2017, 05:57 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Yep. Happened to me about twelve years ago.

White privilege + corrupt police chief = me not booked, and five-hundred dollars lighter.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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02-07-2017, 06:10 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 12:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 06:09 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It would be a difficult thing to prove, I agree.
It would come down to complaints laid, probably by people that have attempted to be hired and have noticed that less qualified white candidates won the job above them. It would need to be investigated and go through the courts.

And in the meantime the white people carry on earning at many times the rate of the black people, the black people do not get hired and the white people talk in self-satisfied terms about how not-racist they are, and what a meritocratic society they have. And how privilege doesn't exist.

Even getting to the initial interview is harder for black people. There's an often cited study from about 10 years ago that showed response rates of employers to resumes with "black" names are lower than those for identical resumes with "white" names. As a result, job-seekers have started "whitening" their resumes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/m...-callbacks

No one is saying discrimination is the same as privilege--that's the latest strawman being used by the bigot on this thread in his arguments--but the benefits of privilege are pervasive. One aspect of privilege: not having to whiten your resume to stay off the slush pile.
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02-07-2017, 07:34 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:51 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's just not a good analogy.

That's more or less it.

Stevil, you're assuming that a quota system or affirmative action of any kind is going to result in *terrible* candidates getting jobs that *wonderful* candidates should have gotten. But the fact is there's often little to choose between candidates. Besides y'know... skin colour.

Plus, because there tend to be far fewer candidates of colour anyway, so it can't really distort the job market so terribly. And if the white candidates are truly so fantastically competent then just like the poor excluded rugby players, they can quite easily apply for other jobs. Which they will get interviews for because y'know... white privilege.

But by all means let's declare our total commitment to a. talking about eradicating racism b. preserving the status quo with all the resources we can throw at it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-07-2017, 07:51 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
I've got some other points to raise. Thought experiment if you will...

Let's do away with affirmative action but nevertheless commit that we're going to do *something* about racist hiring policies.

We're immediately going to run into the problem of proving that a company is actually using a racist hiring policy. Major legal expense, but we've committed to it so let's go the distance. Firstly no company is ever going to admit to that, secondly there are going to be huge numbers of companies involved. Court system will be loaded with cases.

So next the question becomes: ABC trading corp. has been found guilty of racist hiring practices. What shall their punishment be? Shall they:
a. pay a mighty fine
b. be forced to hire qualified people of colour
c. both
d. any other suggestions?

I can't see any means of enforcing this anti-racism legislation that doesn't result in de-facto affirmative action anyway, plus a huge burden of state expenses in these racism cases moving through the court system.

A huge fine as a warning to others will mean that other companies will be eager to show that their hiring policies are not racist and result in... effectively affirmative action.

A forced hiring policy biased towards people of colour is basically affirmative action after a difficult and expensive lawsuit.

I can't see that the laissez faire approach of just making racist hiring illegal and prosecuting after the fact results in anything other than the same results as affirmative action at much greater expense.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-07-2017, 08:17 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 07:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 03:51 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's just not a good analogy.

That's more or less it.

Stevil, you're assuming that a quota system or affirmative action of any kind is going to result in *terrible* candidates getting jobs that *wonderful* candidates should have gotten. But the fact is there's often little to choose between candidates. Besides y'know... skin colour.

Plus, because there tend to be far fewer candidates of colour anyway, so it can't really distort the job market so terribly. And if the white candidates are truly so fantastically competent then just like the poor excluded rugby players, they can quite easily apply for other jobs. Which they will get interviews for because y'know... white privilege.

But by all means let's declare our total commitment to a. talking about eradicating racism b. preserving the status quo with all the resources we can throw at it.

My own experience in IT the regular guys who get a leg in and learn the ropes at everyone else's expense are almost always white. I have been with someone brought in to work the backend queries who simply could not grok SQL and I was forced to help them every step of the way.

He couldn't wrap his head around basic concepts like joins and foreign keys, but had somehow - I have no idea how - made it into the job. I ended up doing 2 people's work on that project. I have been with more such cases on different projects. All of them white.

I find it pretty naive Stevil's suggestion that people like this don't exist. Or that there are no better qualified folks endlessly searching for jobs because they cannot even land the interview or further interviews once their racial background is determined to be a "poor cultural fit".

I actually think white privilege, the positive aspect of it, is good and should be preserved. We should just strive to make it available to as many people as possible. Ideally, nobody should have to endure its flip side.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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02-07-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 02:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If the best medical schools only accept the best applicants, it will almost inevitably mean selecting only from the most well off and well to do, those who could supply their children with every advantage while growing up; and that will almost always be white. Now you can hide the clear disparity in economic opportunity behind the call of meritocracy, ignoring all of the institutionalized poverty and segregation that has stacked the deck against students of color; but you cannot pretend with a straight face that the situation is anything close to 'equality'. So yeah, you establish quotas, you makes those schools have to take a certain amount of minority applicants; ones who otherwise would be passed over in favor white applicants. You gave them a chance at the same opportunity, in an effort to shuffle the deck that is stacked against them. Now so long as they can do their work, pass their classes, and meet the qualifications needed to practice in their field? Then we're all better off having a few doctors of color, even if they're not the best possible doctors we could have. Because they'll have better access to opportunities for themselves and their children, putting them in a better place so that eventually we can do away with quotas once the scales are able to balance themselves, and students of color have just as much opportunity (one might even call that, equal opportunity) as their whiter counterparts to get a good education and a shot at college and a good paying job.
Or,

Instead of getting lesser qualified black doctors and hence lessening the public confidence in black doctors as a whole (The really smart black doctor will be lumped in with the lesser qualified ones, the public won't be able to tell them apart, so those really concerned for the health of themselves and their children will ask for a non black doctor).

If you think the issue is due to poverty, and hence the consequence of lack of funds being an inhibitor to becoming a doctor, you could address that rather than give Blacks special privileges. Schemes such as subsidised schooling, scholorships for bright and promising students (of all colours), student loans, free milk and lunches in schools, public libraries, work for income support, domestic benefit support etc. Things that address poverty regardless if the poor is black, white, yellow or anything else.

Implementing racist policies is racism it is bigotry, we can't just lump people together based on skin colour, and advantage one skin colour over another. I don't support racism of any kind, I will never support racist policies such as affirmative action.
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02-07-2017, 02:46 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 08:17 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I find it pretty naive Stevil's suggestion that people like this don't exist.
Where have I said that bigots and racists don't exist?


In my experience in IT, I work with many Indians, and Chinese and some Maori too, I have been to meetings where I am the only white guy in the room.

Perhaps where you come from things are different, IDK.
But in NZ we didn't get to the point the Chinese and Indians were getting IT jobs because of affirmative action. Many of the Indians got there because of globalisation and outsourcing for cheaper offshore resource, many of those, once they got here they then build a reputation for themselves, left their Indian company, joined a NZ company and then got decent wages.

The Chinese, well, they didn't let poverty or the perception of White privilege get in the way, they went to school, worked hard, got qualified and went out and got a job.
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