Does White Privilege Exist?
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02-07-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 07:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  Plus, because there tend to be far fewer candidates of colour anyway, so it can't really distort the job market so terribly. And if the white candidates are truly so fantastically competent then just like the poor excluded rugby players, they can quite easily apply for other jobs. Which they will get interviews for because y'know... white privilege.
And that is what I believe to be part of the problem with using the label "white privilege"

Because of this belief you think, it doesn't matter to disadvantage a white person. You lump this person into a "Whitey" box and assume they are so privileged that even though you disadvantage them, that it doesn't matter.

So you justify enforcing racism against white people. Somehow you think racism is a cure for racism. Just as some pro gun people think the way to reduce gun murders is by making more guns available.

You don't consider that if black doctors get through because they don't need such high grades then this will make a patient, who isn't ordinarily racist, now want to avoid black doctors, stereo typing them as less qualified, less competent than non black doctors.
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02-07-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:07 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You don't consider that if black doctors get through because they don't need such high grades then this will make a patient, who isn't ordinarily racist, now want to avoid black doctors, stereo typing them as less qualified, less competent than non black doctors.

You seem to think that black doctors will automatically get lower grades? What if affirmative action consists of preferential access to resources to train as a doctor as well as support in terms of extra study, one on one lessons etc to bring them up to standard? Not everyone has to implement affirmative action the way you in your paranoia imagine it to have to be.

And thanks for this "lumping whitey in a box" bullshit that you've come out with. You're flying pretty close to tinfoil hat territory.

So let's go through this once again:
1. Racism exists, preferential access to the job market for white people exists - namely, *white privilege*.
2. Something needs to be done about it. You haven't proposed a damn thing other than anti-racism legislation and have ignored any criticism of that approach, namely that it's not effective without enforcement, and with enforcement it turns into basically expensive affirmative action anyway.

So once again I invite you: if you are so opposed to affirmative action, please propose an alternative to satisfy the following conditions:
1. Black people must gain access to the job market.
2. Racist hiring policies must be verifiably discontinued.
3. These things must happen fairly quickly - within say a decade. Because every year that you wait is another year of injustice perpetuated.

Don't go claiming that you're not an expert either. You know plenty enough to oppose affirmative action in all it's glory, so clearly you must be clever enough to come up with an alternative policy.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-07-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:07 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 07:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  Plus, because there tend to be far fewer candidates of colour anyway, so it can't really distort the job market so terribly. And if the white candidates are truly so fantastically competent then just like the poor excluded rugby players, they can quite easily apply for other jobs. Which they will get interviews for because y'know... white privilege.
And that is what I believe to be part of the problem with using the label "white privilege"

Because of this belief you think, it doesn't matter to disadvantage a white person. You lump this person into a "Whitey" box and assume they are so privileged that even though you disadvantage them, that it doesn't matter.

So you justify enforcing racism against white people. Somehow you think racism is a cure for racism. Just as some pro gun people think the way to reduce gun murders is by making more guns available.

You don't consider that if black doctors get through because they don't need such high grades then this will make a patient, who isn't ordinarily racist, now want to avoid black doctors, stereo typing them as less qualified, less competent than non black doctors.

PS. You're the guy claiming that suuuuper qualified white candidates will be disadvantaged. If they're so super qualified, there will be a job for them then - just not maybe the first job they apply for. So, terrible hardship, they might have to submit more than one application. If they're not super qualified, then your contention is false in the first place.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-07-2017, 04:32 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 02:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 08:17 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I find it pretty naive Stevil's suggestion that people like this don't exist.
Where have I said that bigots and racists don't exist?


In my experience in IT, I work with many Indians, and Chinese and some Maori too, I have been to meetings where I am the only white guy in the room.

Perhaps where you come from things are different, IDK.
But in NZ we didn't get to the point the Chinese and Indians were getting IT jobs because of affirmative action. Many of the Indians got there because of globalisation and outsourcing for cheaper offshore resource, many of those, once they got here they then build a reputation for themselves, left their Indian company, joined a NZ company and then got decent wages.

The Chinese, well, they didn't let poverty or the perception of White privilege get in the way, they went to school, worked hard, got qualified and went out and got a job.

The point is that there are plenty of poorly qualified white folks somehow still getting employed in positions they are ill equipped for. Nowhere do I even hint that these poorly qualified fellows are bigots. How does that go over your head?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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02-07-2017, 06:04 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 03:35 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  Does White Privilege Exist?

Bigoted people believe it does. The same small-minded people also push cultural appropriation.

The enemy numbered six hundred - including women and children - and we abolished them utterly, leaving not even a baby alive to cry for its dead mother. This is incomparably the greatest victory that was ever achieved by the Christian soldiers of the United States. -- Mark Twain
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02-07-2017, 06:21 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:07 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You don't consider that if black doctors get through because they don't need such high grades then this will make a patient, who isn't ordinarily racist, now want to avoid black doctors, stereo typing them as less qualified, less competent than non black doctors.

That's not the way it works here. Uni admissions sometimes give a few points to minorities, but they still have to pass the classwork by the standard in order to graduate.

Also, I'd say that if someone is stereotyping based on race, they probably are racist. Weird, huh?
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02-07-2017, 06:43 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
For decades now, I have been aware of an old catchphrase.

"Free, White and 21." And to this we can add, "male". Yeah, white privilege isn't new. Of course one can lose that if one is a high school dropout, a convicted felon, or drug addict etc. A hick from Appalachia with a thick accent, or having an obviously low IQ. I can walk down streets in America without trouble, whereas a black man will be likely stopped by police and frisked.

Being born high on the pecking order is something I have long been aware of. Of course it would have been even better if I was a member of an ultra wealthy family who graduated from a prestigious Ivy League school.

But white privilege is a fact of life of which I have been aware of for decades.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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02-07-2017, 06:55 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 06:04 PM)Mircea Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 03:35 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  Does White Privilege Exist?

Bigoted people believe it does. The same small-minded people also push cultural appropriation.

Nonsense. I know white privilege exists here in America, and I also reject the concept of "cultural appropriation".

Sorry to disrupt your convenient bucket.
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02-07-2017, 07:09 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 02:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
Implementing racist policies is racism it is bigotry, we can't just lump people together based on skin colour, and advantage one skin colour over another. I don't support racism of any kind, I will never support racist policies such as affirmative action.

What about sexist policies such as affirmative action?

In an environment where a class or group are disenfranchised through tradition ("it's just the way it is around here") and a Catch 22 exists, would it not be advantageous to the wider society (e.g. social order, crime rates etc.) to give the pendulum a shove in order to establish a new equilibrium?

Examples:
1. "There's no point giving women the vote because they are not involved in politics enough to understand politics" ... it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that could only be broken using pro-women discrimination.

2. "There's no point giving blacks an education because they are not educated enough to be educated."

This assumes, of course, that 'equality under the law' is part of the given society's vision statement.

What's often missing in a positive-discrimination scenario is another part of the equation which is: what are the metrics to determine that the policy has succeeded and at what point should the positive-discrimination policy end?

However, if the given society's vision statement is "survival of the fittest" then fuck 'em!
Hence ... Republicans.

Blink

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02-07-2017, 07:21 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 07:09 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 02:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
Implementing racist policies is racism it is bigotry, we can't just lump people together based on skin colour, and advantage one skin colour over another.

What about sexist policies such as affirmative action?

I've mentioned this before, but I personally have been denied opportunities specifically because I'm male.

This raises three related, but separate, issues.
  1. The denial of opportunity to people who have earned it;
  2. The loss by the organization of the input of the person who has the depth and breadth of experience because of that person's gender (or race, or other factor);
  3. The person who ends up with the job because of her gender (or race, or other factor) consistently being both second-guessed in her job because of AA policies and her own view of herself in the position - did she get the position because she was the right candidate, or did the organization have an HR hole to fill and she was the "token" candidate?

While there may be some value to AA as a way to right historical wrongs, fact is that we don't give women, for instance, two votes in a democracy rather than one because women didn't get a vote in the past. We don't pay (insert race) people more money now because their ancestors were slaves/indentured servants.

I have some sympathy for those who think AA is a worthwhile endeavour, but it's trying to right a wrong by creating another wrong. I can't see anything positive coming out of it.
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