Does White Privilege Exist?
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02-07-2017, 07:31 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  You seem to think that black doctors will automatically get lower grades?
No that's not what I think.
I think if you lower the standard for a specific race then the average will be lower.

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  What if affirmative action consists of preferential access to resources to train as a doctor
I would be wholey against such race based preferential access.

Quote: Not everyone has to implement affirmative action the way you in your paranoia imagine it to have to be.
If you can think of a way that doesn't include racial selection and racial preference then I might be all for it.

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  So let's go through this once again:
1. Racism exists,
I agree, there are racist people out there

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  preferential access to the job market for white people exists - namely, *white privilege*.
I disagree

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  2. Something needs to be done about it.
Depends what you mean when you say "it", do you mean white privilege or do you mean racial discrimination, or do you mean poor graduation statistics for a particular race or poor incarceration rates for a particular race or poor stats for certain jobs for a particular race?

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  You haven't proposed a damn thing other than anti-racism legislation and have ignored any criticism of that approach, namely that it's not effective without enforcement, and with enforcement it turns into basically expensive affirmative action anyway.
I'm not here to offer a complete resolution to racial problems. It would takes years of study on my behalf, I'm not properly positioned to know all the answers.

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  So once again I invite you: if you are so opposed to affirmative action, please propose an alternative to satisfy the following conditions:
1. Black people must gain access to the job market.
To propose a solution to this problem I'd need to know the cause of the problem.
Are blacks getting the qualifications at school? Which jobs are they not getting?
Are they applying for those jobs?


(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  2. Racist hiring policies must be verifiably discontinued.
Yes, agreed, even quota systems based on race.

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  3. These things must happen fairly quickly - within say a decade. Because every year that you wait is another year of injustice perpetuated.
I'd say that it is a complex situation and decade turn around is too aggressive and could lead to short cuts such as 'affirmative action' which may make the short term look better but will fail in the long term, e.g. there will be more doctors of a particular race but then patients will look to avoid doctors of that race.

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  Don't go claiming that you're not an expert either. You know plenty enough to oppose affirmative action in all it's glory, so clearly you must be clever enough to come up with an alternative policy.
This is a fallicy, I do know enough to say that employing racist policies does not solve the problem of racism.
But I don't have enough knowledge to understand the problems. Are blacks getting decent grades at school? Why not, if that is the case? Are blacks going to university? Why not if that is the case?
Is the problem due to poverty or skin colour?
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02-07-2017, 07:35 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  PS. You're the guy claiming that suuuuper qualified white candidates will be disadvantaged. If they're so super qualified, there will be a job for them then - just not maybe the first job they apply for. So, terrible hardship, they might have to submit more than one application. If they're not super qualified, then your contention is false in the first place.
Super qualified? Who came up with that one?
What about the people that only just reach the minimum standard?
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02-07-2017, 07:53 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 07:09 PM)DLJ Wrote:  What about sexist policies such as affirmative action?
I've already expressed my disappointment (in an earlier post) in an award that was just for girls and not having an award just for boys.

(02-07-2017 07:09 PM)DLJ Wrote:  In an environment where a class or group are disenfranchised through tradition ("it's just the way it is around here") and a Catch 22 exists, would it not be advantageous to the wider society (e.g. social order, crime rates etc.) to give the pendulum a shove in order to establish a new equilibrium?
Depends how that shove is performed.
For example, females aren't generally interested in IT careers. Perhaps if IT were marketed more in away that may get females interested in it. I'd be OK with that.

(02-07-2017 07:09 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Examples:
1. "There's no point giving women the vote because they are not involved in politics enough to understand politics" ... it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that could only be broken using pro-women discrimination.

2. "There's no point giving blacks an education because they are not educated enough to be educated."
I'd be against any laws that restrict votes to male only,
I'd be against any schools not allowing a particular race to learn there.

If a particular race had a view that they ought not bother getting educated or they don't want their females to get educated, then If I were government, I'd try to work with those communities to try and change that view.
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02-07-2017, 08:05 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 07:21 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  ...
I've mentioned this before, but I personally have been denied opportunities specifically because I'm male.

This raises three related, but separate, issues.
  1. The denial of opportunity to people who have earned it;
  2. The loss by the organization of the input of the person who has the depth and breadth of experience because of that person's gender (or race, or other factor);
  3. The person who ends up with the job because of her gender (or race, or other factor) consistently being both second-guessed in her job because of AA policies and her own view of herself in the position - did she get the position because she was the right candidate, or did the organization have an HR hole to fill and she was the "token" candidate?

...

I agree that there is a downside. As there is with any attempt at social re-engineering.

(02-07-2017 07:21 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  ...
While there may be some value to AA as a way to right historical wrongs, fact is that we don't give women, for instance, two votes in a democracy rather than one because women didn't get a vote in the past. We don't pay (insert race) people more money now because their ancestors were slaves/indentured servants.
...

And maybe we should.

Maybe there is too much testosterone in the current system.

... but not because of guilt over past injustices but to create a new equilibrium.

Imagine a pendulum hanging on a curtain rail. Give it a shove and it will swing and also move along the rail; and then back and then back again, until a new stability is gained but further along the rail from its starting position.

(02-07-2017 07:21 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  ...
I have some sympathy for those who think AA is a worthwhile endeavour, but it's trying to right a wrong by creating another wrong. I can't see anything positive coming out of it.

Or is it about creating a new 'right'? ... using controls and metrics to create a new normal.

The alternative is the free market in a Darwinian sense which leads to a Pareto Distribution and history shows that that usually leads to bloodshed.

Undecided

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02-07-2017, 08:14 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 07:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
Depends how that shove is performed.
...

That, my friend, is absolutely the crux of the matter.

If a governance mechanism (policies, processes, metrics, rights and responsibilities) can be shown to achieve a beneficial outcome for a large majority of the society then consensus can be achieved (even if reluctantly).

(02-07-2017 07:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
For example, females aren't generally interested in IT careers. Perhaps if IT were marketed more in away that may get females interested in it. I'd be OK with that.
...

Here's a pertinent anecdote...
For my more operational-orientated IT classes, attendance is around 90% male.
For the IT Governance courses I've actually had some with 95% female attendance and there is typically at least 50% female attendance.

Which might be one of the reasons that I prefer teaching the latter course

Blush

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02-07-2017, 09:18 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
As an Aussie, it's been of particular interest to me to note that the "coloured" employee opportunities versus the "white" employee opportunities has such a high degree of relevance in countries other than Australia.

The common, pejorative term "coloured" is one which I find offensive anyway—do people still seriously believe that if your skin is a dark colour, then you're apparently a different class of human being? And why then do white-skinned people here in Australia—hundreds of thousands of them—spend literally hours or days on our beaches or in solariums trying to darken their skin? Irony anybody?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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02-07-2017, 10:54 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 09:18 PM)SYZ Wrote:  And why then do white-skinned people here in Australia—hundreds of thousands of them—spend literally hours or days on our beaches or in solariums trying to darken their skin? Irony anybody?
They are trying to reduce their white privilege, as they want to be given credit for their skills and efforts rather than the colour of their skin.
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03-07-2017, 12:05 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
The answer to the question is no. There is white obligation, but not white privilege any more than there is female privilege. I refer you to Thaddeus Russell voth his book a renegade history of the United States and his podcast unregistered. He lays out the argument of (not for) calvinist white obligation there. He (And i agree) holds that white obligation is destructive to freedom.

*when I use the term "white" I'm not referring to skin color, but rather nordic protestant Christian values.
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03-07-2017, 01:13 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 03:47 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 01:47 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Nope. You couldn't. This is not a case of hetero privilege, but one of homosexual oppression and/or persecution. Two different things altogether.
These guys are arguing that oppression of blacks = white privilege. They think it is one and the same.

Who are "these guys"? Do you dare respond? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Just so the readers are in on the picture, no one here is arguing that the oppression of blacks is identical to white privilege. What you're being informed of here, and steadfastly refuse to hear, is that when you have centuries of racist repression, you obviously build in a head-start for one race and an anchor for another.

You complained upthread about my personal attacks on you, but when you mount straw-men like this hat do you expect? You're either so biased that you don't understand the point, or so dishonest you're willing to ignore it. In either case, that renders your posts unworthy of consideration.
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03-07-2017, 01:38 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 10:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 09:18 PM)SYZ Wrote:  And why then do white-skinned people here in Australia—hundreds of thousands of them—spend literally hours or days on our beaches or in solariums trying to darken their skin? Irony anybody?
They are trying to reduce their white privilege, as they want to be given credit for their skills and efforts rather than the colour of their skin.

Translation: People tan because they don't want their skin-color noticed.
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