Does White Privilege Exist?
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03-07-2017, 01:39 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 07:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  You seem to think that black doctors will automatically get lower grades?
No that's not what I think.
I think if you lower the standard for a specific race then the average will be lower.

But no one has proposed lowering the standard.

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(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  What if affirmative action consists of preferential access to resources to train as a doctor
I would be wholey against such race based preferential access.

Quote: Not everyone has to implement affirmative action the way you in your paranoia imagine it to have to be.
If you can think of a way that doesn't include racial selection and racial preference then I might be all for it.
Even though the problem we're trying to solve is race-based preferential access, we're not allowed to implement any solution which takes account of historical race-based discrimination... That's kinda... not workable?

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(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  So let's go through this once again:
1. Racism exists,
I agree, there are racist people out there

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  preferential access to the job market for white people exists - namely, *white privilege*.
I disagree

Are you free to disagree with statistics? Here's a paper abstract I found with just a bit of googling. There are plenty more.

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(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  2. Something needs to be done about it.
Depends what you mean when you say "it", do you mean white privilege or do you mean racial discrimination, or do you mean poor graduation statistics for a particular race or poor incarceration rates for a particular race or poor stats for certain jobs for a particular race?
I mean the discrimination has to be ended, the preferential access to job market (we're talking about jobs but there are plenty other examples of privilege that also need to end) has to end, and the generally shitty deal that is given to people of colour has to end.

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(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  You haven't proposed a damn thing other than anti-racism legislation and have ignored any criticism of that approach, namely that it's not effective without enforcement, and with enforcement it turns into basically expensive affirmative action anyway.
I'm not here to offer a complete resolution to racial problems. It would takes years of study on my behalf, I'm not properly positioned to know all the answers.
Yet you apparently know what won't work without any study whatsoever.

Quote:
(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  So once again I invite you: if you are so opposed to affirmative action, please propose an alternative to satisfy the following conditions:
1. Black people must gain access to the job market.
To propose a solution to this problem I'd need to know the cause of the problem.
Are blacks getting the qualifications at school? Which jobs are they not getting?
Are they applying for those jobs?


(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  2. Racist hiring policies must be verifiably discontinued.
Yes, agreed, even quota systems based on race.

(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  3. These things must happen fairly quickly - within say a decade. Because every year that you wait is another year of injustice perpetuated.
I'd say that it is a complex situation and decade turn around is too aggressive and could lead to short cuts such as 'affirmative action' which may make the short term look better but will fail in the long term, e.g. there will be more doctors of a particular race but then patients will look to avoid doctors of that race.
What you have here is not *only* a problem of people of colour being racially discriminated against, but *also* a problem of the perception that absolutely nothing is being done about it. If there can be no turn around inside of a decade without aggressive policies like affirmative action, then affirmative action is needed. How can you say to people "Sorry life is shit for you, we can't do anything about it even in TEN YEARS, so please just understand and go back to living your shitty lives".

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(02-07-2017 03:26 PM)morondog Wrote:  Don't go claiming that you're not an expert either. You know plenty enough to oppose affirmative action in all it's glory, so clearly you must be clever enough to come up with an alternative policy.
This is a fallicy, I do know enough to say that employing racist policies does not solve the problem of racism.
But I don't have enough knowledge to understand the problems. Are blacks getting decent grades at school? Why not, if that is the case? Are blacks going to university? Why not if that is the case?
Is the problem due to poverty or skin colour?
You don't have enough knowledge to understand the problems but you *do* have enough knowledge to oppose an attempted solution. Do you not think that experts looked at this problem of affirmative action before they suggested implementing it?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-07-2017, 01:51 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(02-07-2017 09:18 PM)SYZ Wrote:  As an Aussie, it's been of particular interest to me to note that the "coloured" employee opportunities versus the "white" employee opportunities has such a high degree of relevance in countries other than Australia.

The common, pejorative term "coloured" is one which I find offensive anyway—do people still seriously believe that if your skin is a dark colour, then you're apparently a different class of human being? And why then do white-skinned people here in Australia—hundreds of thousands of them—spend literally hours or days on our beaches or in solariums trying to darken their skin? Irony anybody?

I hate having to use these terms as well, but the fact of the matter is that this skin-tone based demented classification system has a long history and won't go away just because we ignore it. Race based discrimination exists, even though "race" is a social construct and not a physical reality.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-07-2017, 03:03 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 07:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No that's not what I think.
I think if you lower the standard for a specific race then the average will be lower.

But no one has proposed lowering the standard.
So how would you propose to use "affirmative action" in order to get more of one race into a specific occupation, or domain in higher schools?
I have seen in NZ affirmative action used in terms of quotas and in terms of lowered grade standards for one race over others.

(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:I would be wholey against such race based preferential access.

If you can think of a way that doesn't include racial selection and racial preference then I might be all for it.
Even though the problem we're trying to solve is race-based preferential access, we're not allowed to implement any solution which takes account of historical race-based discrimination... That's kinda... not workable?
I do think there is too much focus on the outcome and not enough on the reasons for the outcome. For example, it might be entirely appropriate that there are much more males that are into C++ programming and much more women that are into project management. Perhaps males are happy with programming machines and females are happy with interacting with people, planning and leading???
In these circumstances we do not need the demographic distribution of programmers to match the demographic distribution of society.

But if you think there is a problem, it would be important to look into the causes wouldn't it, rather than to create a quota system and lower standards for the demographic that YOU want to boost. If the causes are poverty then address that by reducing the money hurdles (for all poor, not just the poor of a particular race). If it is a cultural thing, then work on that collaboratively with leaders and influencers within that culture.

(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Are you free to disagree with statistics? Here's a paper abstract I found with just a bit of googling. There are plenty more.
This is about "discrimination against ethnic and racial minorities" it is not about "white privilege"

(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:Depends what you mean when you say "it", do you mean white privilege or do you mean racial discrimination, or do you mean poor graduation statistics for a particular race or poor incarceration rates for a particular race or poor stats for certain jobs for a particular race?
I mean the discrimination has to be ended
Cool, so how do we end discrimination?
Certainly not by creating discriminating policies and privileges.


(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not here to offer a complete resolution to racial problems. It would takes years of study on my behalf, I'm not properly positioned to know all the answers.
Yet you apparently know what won't work without any study whatsoever.
I have provided a real world example where Malay doctors are avoided by many Malaysian patients. These patients wouldn't necessarily have been racist, but they want high qualified doctors so they are forced into it by this affirmative action.

(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  What you have here is not *only* a problem of people of colour being racially discriminated against, but *also* a problem of the perception that absolutely nothing is being done about it. If there can be no turn around inside of a decade without aggressive policies like affirmative action, then affirmative action is needed. How can you say to people "Sorry life is shit for you, we can't do anything about it even in TEN YEARS, so please just understand and go back to living your shitty lives".
That's not the case at all. If you are looking into the root cause and working with those communities to address that then you are doing something.
Putting "affirmative action" in place is not only implementing racist policies but will also result in more seemingly racist consequences with people avoiding a particular race of doctor etc.

(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  You don't have enough knowledge to understand the problems but you *do* have enough knowledge to oppose an attempted solution. Do you not think that experts looked at this problem of affirmative action before they suggested implementing it?
I assume they have assumed "white privilege" and have misguidedly implemented racist policies to try and remove racism!
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03-07-2017, 04:15 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(03-07-2017 03:03 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  But no one has proposed lowering the standard.
So how would you propose to use "affirmative action" in order to get more of one race into a specific occupation, or domain in higher schools?
I have seen in NZ affirmative action used in terms of quotas and in terms of lowered grade standards for one race over others.
As I already proposed. Don't lower standards but improve access to education. For example, keep your doctor exams at a high standard but recognise that people from disadvantaged backgrounds may need a bit more help *getting* the education than those from not-so-disadvantaged backgrounds. Set a quota for entry into the system - because of all the well-qualified applicants to be a doctor, most of the white ones *will* be on paper, much better students. So allow people preferential access getting *into* the system, but not exiting it.

Quote:
(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Are you free to disagree with statistics? Here's a paper abstract I found with just a bit of googling. There are plenty more.
This is about "discrimination against ethnic and racial minorities" it is not about "white privilege"
FFS. What is this discrimination if not preferential access to jobs? Do you want a reference that explicitly mentions "white privilege"? I'm pretty sure google will give me one if I look.

Quote:
(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Yet you apparently know what won't work without any study whatsoever.
I have provided a real world example where Malay doctors are avoided by many Malaysian patients. These patients wouldn't necessarily have been racist, but they want high qualified doctors so they are forced into it by this affirmative action.

I provided you with a published article. You provided me with a link to a forum discussion. There's a bit of a difference. And in any case, what you are then quibbling over is a result of poor implementation of policy. I still haven't seen a reason to object to the policy itself.

Quote:
(03-07-2017 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  You don't have enough knowledge to understand the problems but you *do* have enough knowledge to oppose an attempted solution. Do you not think that experts looked at this problem of affirmative action before they suggested implementing it?
I assume they have assumed "white privilege" and have misguidedly implemented racist policies to try and remove racism!
And you misguidedly assume they're a bunch of idiots. Who are you to say they're misguided? These policies have been in place for years anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of results available concerning how effective they are. We don't have to argue based on feelings of what we like or don't like.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-07-2017, 06:42 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 04:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 03:35 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  So, dose 'White Privilege' exist? In my mind, not everywhere. There are places you will find assholes who will chose a white person over a colored person. Does this make all white people evil, greedy, privileged? Nope, just means you met someone who is.

I think it does exist. It's a shit privilege to have too, 'cos I didn't ask for it. I'd far rather be evaluated on my merits alone, because I think I'm pretty hot shit - although there is the sneaking thought that if I *was* actually evaluated solely on merit I might not measure up. Maybe somewhere other than where I live (South Africa) you could argue that white privilege isn't a thing, but not here. It's too blatant here.

White privilege as I see it is less of an individual thing. The message isn't "Hey *you* are privileged". It's "Hey, there's a whole class of people who're getting preferential treatment for no good reason". It doesn't imply that some of that class of people might not *also* be getting shafted by the System. But it does say that there's a skewed playing field.

Also, regardless that I don't regard myself as racist, particularly special, or particularly well off, I do and have benefitted from such privilege. It's little things and big things. Little things like people greet me in English - I don't have to learn a foreign language just to say hello to a potential employer. Big things like because of generational wealth I don't have to pay off huge loans to access education.

This is the critical part as I see it: "White privilege as I see it is less of an individual thing. The message isn't "Hey *you* are privileged". It's "Hey, there's a whole class of people who're getting preferential treatment for no good reason". It doesn't imply that some of that class of people might not *also* be getting shafted by the System. But it does say that there's a skewed playing field."

I'm white and I'm aware of the fact that I haven't had to climb the same hills minorities have had to. I'm a guy and I'm aware that I haven't had to endure the sexism and misogyny that women do. That doesn't mean I believe I've had it easy, but I recognize that I could have had it a lot harder.

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03-07-2017, 03:01 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(03-07-2017 04:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  And you misguidedly assume they're a bunch of idiots. Who are you to say they're misguided? These policies have been in place for years anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of results available concerning how effective they are. We don't have to argue based on feelings of what we like or don't like.
I didn't say that they are a bunch of idiots. We are all susceptible to confirmation bias and drawing conclusions from limited data.

I've done a very quick search on "affirmative action studies"
The very first link I got was this http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar_url?...AMIJigAMAA

and from my take on that report, it supports my position rather than yours


top of page 33 (go by the little page numbers at the left and right of the pages rather than the big page numbers in the middle)
Quote:The central assumption of affirmative action programs is that "underrepresentation" of minorities or women represents employer "exclusion" rather than different career characteristics of groups or different choices of the individuals themselves.

top of page 37
Quote:Affirmative action practices ignore both choice and career characteristics by the simple process of putting the burden of proof on academic institutions to explain why their percentages of minority and female faculty do not match the kinds of proportions preconceived by government authorities





The below is at the bottom of page 40-top of page 41
Quote:Among blacks, college educated men had acheived starting salary equality by 1970 with "virtually all the improvement in relative income" occuring " after passage of the 1964 civil rights act" but before affirmative action quotas under revised order no4 in 1971

Quote:In short, it was anti discrimination, or equal opportunity laws, not goals or quotas, that made the difference

Now we could scour the internet, you could find positive reports for affirmative action, I could find negative ones, we could each pick holes in the reports the other guy finds. I don't think we will get anywhere.

I've probably said all I can say.
I am not an academic in this field. I am offering my unqualified opinion. I am not expecting you to believe me, or change your mind towards my opinion.
I am wholly against racism and racist policies, and I am for finding root cause to problems rather than putting band aids onto them. I am weary of the consequences of implementing racist solutions to assumed racist problems. I know of examples where these solutions cause seemingly non racist people to start considering the race of an employee or doctor where otherwise they would not have been concerned.
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03-07-2017, 06:52 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 07:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 02:09 PM)Dr H Wrote:  For one: The privilege of at least having a cop think twice before blowing you away during a routine traffic stop.
In NZ our traffic officers don't possess guns, so this point is invalid here.
Good to hear.

Quote:With regards to your own country I'd think you are making great big assumptions. Is it police policy to shoot non whites for driving offenses?

The US is a large, very diverse country, with many jurisdictions and levels of law enforcement, so there is no single blanket policy covering all of them.

That said, it is police policy in many jurisdictions to: 1) be prepared to assume that a threat to public safety may exist, even where no overt evidence of such threat may be immediately discerned; and 2) to definitively neutralize the assumed threat prior to proceeding with mundane administrative details.

That second one is sometimes expressed by the lay populace as, "shoot first; ask questions later".

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03-07-2017, 06:58 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(30-06-2017 07:47 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So it seems to me that if one wants to try and solve the issue of crime one ought to focus on poverty issues rather than a perceived "white privilege". See how this works. Delve deeper than looking at skin colour, discover the root cause and focus on that.

[Image: 1473807118.png]

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03-07-2017, 07:48 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(01-07-2017 02:55 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm just not willing to jump to conclusions.
I do agree that racism exists. How institutionlised that is, I'm unsure of.
I'm pretty damned sure of it, having studied it for a couple of decades, and taught about it for the past ten years.

Here:
The FHA explicitly refused to back loans to black people or even other people who lived near black people.
This wasn't in "the Bible Belt", or "the South", BTW; it was everywhere in the US: FHA = "Federal Housing Administration"

Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care

Racial profiling by store clerks and security personnel in retail establishments: An exploration of “shopping while black”.

Racial, ethnic, and gender differences in perceptions of the police: The salience of officer race within the context of racial profiling.

“I don't think I'm a racist”: Critical Race Theory, teacher attitudes, and structural racism.

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03-07-2017, 08:03 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(03-07-2017 07:48 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 02:55 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm just not willing to jump to conclusions.
I do agree that racism exists. How institutionlised that is, I'm unsure of.
I'm pretty damned sure of it, having studied it for a couple of decades, and taught about it for the past ten years.

Here:
The FHA explicitly refused to back loans to black people or even other people who lived near black people.
This wasn't in "the Bible Belt", or "the South", BTW; it was everywhere in the US: FHA = "Federal Housing Administration"
You teach about racism? Are you a history teacher, or does this also expand into current day USA?

I watched "Hidden figures" the other day, was a bit surprised about the segregation, blacks only toilets, blacks only seats on the bus, blacks only coffee machines. Looked it up on Wikipedia, USA had this going on for sometime until 1964 Civil Rights Act?

This FHA thing was in 1934, and lasted until 1968. So around about that period too.
Yeah, I can understand that something like housing can still have significant repercussions today.
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