Does White Privilege Exist?
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27-06-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
So from what I'm gathering, Class Privilege and White Privilege are often interchanged. I see this alot also, which is why I find it hard to understand how can someone be so privileged when they don't have anything?

This is where I bang my head on the wall. The merry go round in my mind is.
- White people have privilege that is given to them at birth and they get to enjoy little things not everyone does.
- Yet how can that be if suddenly said white person is poor, or from a poor family, and scarping out of the barrel to live.
- But it's not as bad as black people who are poor.
- At the same time there are black people who are rich and dare say that 'White Privilege exist' yet...they have everything a white person does.
- A middle class black family person could be doing great, with a good job, yet they still say they are not as 'privileged' as the family who lives the same life they do as they are white.
- But that can't be true because it's a proven fact white people are racist. Thus they should know what it's like to be the minority and should face like how a black person should.
-But why should anyone have to bend over backwards for people they don't even know. All because they have another skin color? Why should someone given black people everything because of things we did in the past.
- If you think that way then you're just a overly privileged white person... Who is poor, and trying to get by like everyone else in this world.
- Isn't that a sign of racism to white people
- Racism to white people doesn't exist...
- Yes it does... I've seen it... I've experience it. I've been forced to get out of my comfort zone, just because the person was black. And if I didn't I was racist.

At what point am I going to start screaming at people just how confusing this shit is?

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

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27-06-2017, 08:06 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 07:41 PM)Vera Wrote:  Ruby, do you even read your posts? Do you think this UNBELIEVABLE degree of defensiveness is warranted or a sign of you wanting to hear "both sides"? For crying out loud, after the long, calmly argued posts with plenty of examples by quite a few members, you just said: then I should die? You think this is a normal reaction? The reaction of someone who doesn't already have a formed "opinion" on the subject and wanted it confirmed and when that didn't happen, couldn't handle it?

You can talk about passive-aggressiveness all you want, but you don't seem to have read or considered anything one said. It's okay, it's your right to cling to your already existing opinion, people do only see what they want to see.

First of all... It was an example of why I feel 'White Privilege' means 'Black Entitlement'. Did I mention any name... no Did I say it was someone here? No. Did I even point the finger to acusee I'm suddenly being attacked by people on here. NO.
This is problem number one.

Secondly, my mind is just confused right now. I'm on a merry go round of constrictions and claims. I have a somewhat formed opinion. And just asked 'What do you think of said thought' Instead, I've gotten people showing me so many people giving me long pages of something I'm still trying to make heads or tails off. (Might be because I'm having a hard time reading due to my glasses... Always did have trouble with a white board and glare.)

Thirdly, "The reaction of someone who doesn't already have a formed "opinion" on the subject and wanted it confirmed and when that didn't happen, couldn't handle it?" I'm stupid, IDK what the heck you're trying to get across here. Couldn't handle what.. they truth. Far as I can tell, the truth is still a blurry mess of 'WTF am I looking at?'

And finally, I'm not that smart of a person. It's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of another. When I read another's posts about things they have seen, I can't get the reason why they think a certain way. I'm not very emphatic about others feelings. I just can't wrap my mind around things, when I'm reading so many things that make it all much more confusing. I'm being pulled a bunch of different ways, and I don't know which one is the truth or the better route.

Should I agree with those who tell me 'White Privilege' is everywhere and I'm at fault to because I'm white?
Should I agree with those who say it's there, but not everyone is at fault?
Or should I be ignorant and pretend no one is home?

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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27-06-2017, 08:19 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Ruby, I suggest you take a break, count to ten (thousand) and maybe come back later, if you honestly do not see that your reaction is out of all proportion, especially in light of the way people replied to you. If you think *this* was being attacked, frankly, I don't see how you are ever going to enjoy this place. Or life, for that matter. People are always going to disagree with you and a lot of them would do it in a much more aggressive way than what you've encountered here, where people have been nothing but nice and informative, even after you started screaming "I should die, then!"

In my brutally honest opinion - people have been replying much more nicely than some of your wordings have warranted.

And black entitlement, eh? Oh yeah, no agenda or previously formed opinion there, no sirree.

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27-06-2017, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 08:59 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 08:19 PM)Vera Wrote:  Ruby, I suggest you take a break, count to ten (thousand) and maybe come back later, if you honestly do not see that your reaction is out of all proportion, especially in light of the way people replied to you. If you think *this* was being attacked, frankly, I don't see how you are ever going to enjoy this place. Or life, for that matter. People are always going to disagree with you and a lot of them would do it in a much more aggressive way than what you've encountered here, where people have been nothing but nice and informative, even after you started screaming "I should die, then!"

In my brutally honest opinion - people have been replying much more nicely than some of your wordings have warranted.

And black entitlement, eh? Oh yeah, no agenda or previously formed opinion there, no sirree.

At no point did Ruby say or scream "I should die"

She was clearly pointing out that people implied that's what THEY were thinking about her. Racism exists all over in every group from people of every skin color, my grandma hated black people. My grandma was Mexican (born in Mexico she was the first generation to come to the US in my family along with her mother, my great grandmother). My cousin is half black half Mexican, his sisters are half white half Mexican.

When my grandma died my mom asked me if I had any problem with my cousin Mark (because he has a fucking name and he's a good man) carrying the casket. I said of course not, why would I? My mom hugged me and said thanks cause apparently someone else had an issue with it and was making a fuss over it (I never learned who). My grandma also treated boys better than girls, I saw her treat my female cousins very poorly yelling screaming hitting, then turn around and spoil the boys (except for Mark she was always mean to him and he never deserved it), I didn't really like that but she was old there was no changing her at that point. This idea that only one group of people can be racist is objectively wrong on every level. But then the sentiments presented sound very post modern, ideas touted by the same proponents of social justice theory and they think logic is evil too so it's no wonder they have no problem saying false things.

(My poor racist grandma, all her grand kids are mixed race and to a racist that's far worse than being black or pick the race of your choice to insert there)

What people like to call "White Privilege" does in fact exist. And there is statistical data to suggest so. "Rich Privilege" also exists and is even more prolific and impactful and most of the people screaming about white privilege seem pretty rich and privileged to me despite them thinking they are oppressed. At least they dont' go hungry most days, though that's just an anecdotal observation. It can sometimes be difficult to know if it's really white privilege or rich privilege that is the issue. Even so, not being white myself I've never been stupid enough to get into it with a cop, that's how people end up dead (everyone know's about the deep racist streak in the ranks of the police, and the thin blue line that insures the few that aren't would never turn on the many who are). However, Ruby isn't here selling some "agenda" as far as I can tell, kinda sounds like you may be reading too much into it and triggered your automated attack function from the more ideological part of your brain. I would encourage you to read what she says again more carefully and without your own preconceived notions and prejudices Vera, you're a rational intelligent person and I don't think you really want to cause as much trauma to someone who very much could be an ally as you seem to be inflicting. Your words clearly indicate you think she's a racist and I highly doubt she is. So I hope everyone can take a deep breath, and engage in some introspection. It's high time people put down the ideological guns and start talking to each other, not trying to put each other into groups then attacking the groups.

Now no where in here is any false equivalence, racism is wrong no matter who commits it, however! that does not imply or suggest that all groups have had to face equal discrimination. They haven't. Some have faced more than others, historically and in the present. BUT all groups have engaged in racism, and even slavery of other groups. No one is really innocent here though, lets try to keep a more encompassing view of history in mind here. Finally the delineation of race is silly, biologically speaking we're all humans and one day we'll realize that judging anyone based on skin color is about as arbitrary and stupid as can possibly be.

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27-06-2017, 08:58 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  So from what I'm gathering, Class Privilege and White Privilege are often interchanged. I see this alot also, which is why I find it hard to understand how can someone be so privileged when they don't have anything?

Because even though they don't have "anything" (financially), they still benefit in ways that minorities do not. That makes them not quite the bottom of the totem pole, so to speak, which is why you often see even the most reprehensible, bottom-of-the-barrel "white trash" as the main participants in racist organizations like the Klan. They get to feel superior to someone, ironically demonstrating white privilege while (usually) protesting loudly that there's no such thing because their life sucks.

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - White people have privilege that is given to them at birth and they get to enjoy little things not everyone does.
- Yet how can that be if suddenly said white person is poor, or from a poor family, and scarping out of the barrel to live.

Because if a white person is in that situation, it's not (usually) because of the history of white supremacy in this country, which actively and openly sought to keep black people repressed while giving every advantage to their white counterparts. Google "Jim Crow" if you want to learn more about this subject. I know your reaction tends to be "but that was the past", but that's simply not true. Things that happen in the past have ramifications into the present, especially given the effects of generational wealth-- the advantages kids get, via their parents' social position and wealth (or other opportunities), in trying to generate their own wealth and social position as they mature.

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - But it's not as bad as black people who are poor.
- At the same time there are black people who are rich and dare say that 'White Privilege exist' yet...they have everything a white person does.

That's right, it's not as bad as black people who are poor. Because in addition to all the disadvantages of being a poor white person, they must carry the weight of thousands of little things that add up to a big disadvantage. I gave such an example in my police story.

Wealth can, to a large degree, mitigate some of the effects of privilege, because after all, America is famously "pay to play", from our court systems to any other system you care to name. So a black family that has some money to throw around can negate some of what happens to them because of their skin-- but that doesn't make it generally true, and it doesn't negate all of it. As before, a similarly-situated white family still has the advantage.


(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - A middle class black family person could be doing great, with a good job, yet they still say they are not as 'privileged' as the family who lives the same life they do as they are white.
- But that can't be true because it's a proven fact white people are racist. Thus they should know what it's like to be the minority and should face like how a black person should.

I don't even know what the fuck you mean by "it's a proven fact white people are racist". Most people are not racist, in the active "I hate people who are different from me" sense of the term. That's not the same thing as turning a blind eye to what people of color are trying to tell you about their lived experience, and how color impacts so many aspects of their lives-- things white people never have to deal with, giving them the ability to pretend white privilege is not even a real thing. It's like a little kid covering his eyes and pretending that you're not there because he can't see you.


(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  -But why should anyone have to bend over backwards for people they don't even know. All because they have another skin color? Why should someone given black people everything because of things we did in the past.

I already addressed the "in the past" part... but...

What do you mean by "bend over backwards"? Admit that there are still systemic problems in the world in which we live, and that people don't deserve to be disadvantaged because of the racist actions of the past which remain unaddressed? Try to listen to people when they tell you that these things still affect them, even when you don't see it, yourself? I mean, what exactly do you mean by "bend over backwards?"

To understand my reaction, here, think of how you view the guys who dismiss women who say they were sexually harassed and/or sexually assaulted. When people tell you things are happening, believe them. Support them. Try to make sure that you're not part of the problem (which you are, if you ignore them and pretend they're just making it up because... reasons), and try to fight against the problem, even if you can't see it for yourself. That's what you'd expect of men who hear about the women's tales of victimhood, right?

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - If you think that way then you're just a overly privileged white person... Who is poor, and trying to get by like everyone else in this world.
- Isn't that a sign of racism to white people
- Racism to white people doesn't exist...
- Yes it does... I've seen it... I've experience it. I've been forced to get out of my comfort zone, just because the person was black. And if I didn't I was racist.

As has been pointed out to you, yes, it does indicate that you're a privileged white person. I have said it before in other posts, but it apparently bears repeating:

White privilege includes the privilege of pretending white privilege doesn't really exist.

That has nothing to do with whether or not white people are treated in a racist fashion by individuals. Of course we are. Of course there are bigots of all stripes.

It also doesn't mean that actions of the bigots with dark skin-- or those who hide behind the word "racism" to employ their own form of racism-- disqualify anything else the people talking about white privilege are saying.

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  At what point am I going to start screaming at people just how confusing this shit is?

When you start really listening, I expect.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-06-2017, 09:01 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 06:53 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  Only because I'm white and so 'Privileged' means I am shit and should die.

(27-06-2017 08:54 PM)JesseB Wrote:  At no point did Ruby say or scream "I should die"

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27-06-2017, 09:06 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 09:01 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 06:53 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  Only because I'm white and so 'Privileged' means I am shit and should die.

(27-06-2017 08:54 PM)JesseB Wrote:  At no point did Ruby say or scream "I should die"

You are re enforcing my point. She was stating what the other person was implying, not stating what she thinks she should do.

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27-06-2017, 09:13 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 08:58 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  So from what I'm gathering, Class Privilege and White Privilege are often interchanged. I see this alot also, which is why I find it hard to understand how can someone be so privileged when they don't have anything?

Because even though they don't have "anything" (financially), they still benefit in ways that minorities do not. That makes them not quite the bottom of the totem pole, so to speak, which is why you often see even the most reprehensible, bottom-of-the-barrel "white trash" as the main participants in racist organizations like the Klan. They get to feel superior to someone, ironically demonstrating white privilege while (usually) protesting loudly that there's no such thing because their life sucks.

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - White people have privilege that is given to them at birth and they get to enjoy little things not everyone does.
- Yet how can that be if suddenly said white person is poor, or from a poor family, and scarping out of the barrel to live.

Because if a white person is in that situation, it's not (usually) because of the history of white supremacy in this country, which actively and openly sought to keep black people repressed while giving every advantage to their white counterparts. Google "Jim Crow" if you want to learn more about this subject. I know your reaction tends to be "but that was the past", but that's simply not true. Things that happen in the past have ramifications into the present, especially given the effects of generational wealth-- the advantages kids get, via their parents' social position and wealth (or other opportunities), in trying to generate their own wealth and social position as they mature.

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - But it's not as bad as black people who are poor.
- At the same time there are black people who are rich and dare say that 'White Privilege exist' yet...they have everything a white person does.

That's right, it's not as bad as black people who are poor. Because in addition to all the disadvantages of being a poor white person, they must carry the weight of thousands of little things that add up to a big disadvantage. I gave such an example in my police story.

Wealth can, to a large degree, mitigate some of the effects of privilege, because after all, America is famously "pay to play", from our court systems to any other system you care to name. So a black family that has some money to throw around can negate some of what happens to them because of their skin-- but that doesn't make it generally true, and it doesn't negate all of it. As before, a similarly-situated white family still has the advantage.


(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - A middle class black family person could be doing great, with a good job, yet they still say they are not as 'privileged' as the family who lives the same life they do as they are white.
- But that can't be true because it's a proven fact white people are racist. Thus they should know what it's like to be the minority and should face like how a black person should.

I don't even know what the fuck you mean by "it's a proven fact white people are racist". Most people are not racist, in the active "I hate people who are different from me" sense of the term. That's not the same thing as turning a blind eye to what people of color are trying to tell you about their lived experience, and how color impacts so many aspects of their lives-- things white people never have to deal with, giving them the ability to pretend white privilege is not even a real thing. It's like a little kid covering his eyes and pretending that you're not there because he can't see you.


(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  -But why should anyone have to bend over backwards for people they don't even know. All because they have another skin color? Why should someone given black people everything because of things we did in the past.

I already addressed the "in the past" part... but...

What do you mean by "bend over backwards"? Admit that there are still systemic problems in the world in which we live, and that people don't deserve to be disadvantaged because of the racist actions of the past which remain unaddressed? Try to listen to people when they tell you that these things still affect them, even when you don't see it, yourself? I mean, what exactly do you mean by "bend over backwards?"

To understand my reaction, here, think of how you view the guys who dismiss women who say they were sexually harassed and/or sexually assaulted. When people tell you things are happening, believe them. Support them. Try to make sure that you're not part of the problem (which you are, if you ignore them and pretend they're just making it up because... reasons), and try to fight against the problem, even if you can't see it for yourself. That's what you'd expect of men who hear about the women's tales of victimhood, right?

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  - If you think that way then you're just a overly privileged white person... Who is poor, and trying to get by like everyone else in this world.
- Isn't that a sign of racism to white people
- Racism to white people doesn't exist...
- Yes it does... I've seen it... I've experience it. I've been forced to get out of my comfort zone, just because the person was black. And if I didn't I was racist.

As has been pointed out to you, yes, it does indicate that you're a privileged white person. I have said it before in other posts, but it apparently bears repeating:

White privilege includes the privilege of pretending white privilege doesn't really exist.

That has nothing to do with whether or not white people are treated in a racist fashion by individuals. Of course we are. Of course there are bigots of all stripes.

It also doesn't mean that actions of the bigots with dark skin-- or those who hide behind the word "racism" to employ their own form of racism-- disqualify anything else the people talking about white privilege are saying.

(27-06-2017 07:47 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  At what point am I going to start screaming at people just how confusing this shit is?

When you start really listening, I expect.

^Removed because it was uncalled for^, you know damn well just like me the lower down the socioeconomic ladder you go prison populations even out between racial groups. I get as much of a hard time from the cops as anyone else who lives on 10,000 a year regardless of their skin color. I still have to be aware of course I get in a car with another Mexican and a cop drives by I know the thing he's thinking is "there's 2 Mexicans in that car they must be up to something" but then they'll say the same thing about any obviously poor person. so while what you say is true the further up you go in income, for those of us living in extreme poverty we all get an equal fuck you from the police and society at large. I could speak for all of those in my income bracket by saying that's an asinine statement. At least for those of us who really are suffering the most in society.

The greatest sin in America is to be born poor or to become poor. But hey it's ok go to a food bank so you can have rotten food served to you so all the rich folks can feel better cause clearly giving you rotten food is "helping" right?

Edit^ that came out more harsh than I like or intended. I get kinda fired up about poverty >.>

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27-06-2017, 09:13 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Have to agree with JesseB on this one... Vera, ease up on the girl. She's asking good questions, which is more important than having the right answers.

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27-06-2017, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 09:19 PM by Vera.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 09:06 PM)JesseB Wrote:  You are re enforcing my point. She was stating what the other person was implying, not stating what she thinks she should do.

Once more, with a bit of reading comprehension this time, you don't mind. Drinking Beverage

She was talking about a (apparently hypothetical "someone"): "What scares me about people who tell me about white privilege is that one person who will look me in the eye and tell me I'm worth shit... even though I did nothing to them. Only because I'm white and so 'Privileged' means I am shit and should die." And only LATER claiming it's something that might have happened to a friend of hers.

And it's a ridiculous exaggeration and completely unwarranted by anything posted in the thread so far.

ETA: And I don't appreciate being told how to talk to people, RocketSurgeon. Everyone is responsible for themselves.

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