Does White Privilege Exist?
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27-06-2017, 09:50 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 03:35 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  My thoughts on 'White Privilege' is it exist but only in certain places. It's true when we see a poor, white man this 'Privilege' seems to be just something to spark outrage in people of color.
Yet on the other hand, most people you find in power tend to be older white people who seem to not really care about those who are colored, even putting poor white people over poor color people.
White privilege does not exist, unless you are in some really racist place.

In my experience it is the absolute opposite.
When I went to school, there was a prize for the top student. There was also a prize for the top female and also a prize for the top Maori.
So if you were a female Maori you had three prizes you could win. If you were a non Maori female you had two prizes you could win. But if you were a non Maori male you only had one prize on offer. This prize you had to compete against females and Maori for.
So school was institutionalised in favour of females and Maori and especially Maori females.

I understand some people may come back and cite statistics regarding the demographics of those graduating from school. But that does not correlate to privilege from being a "white male". We all attend the same classes and sit the same tests.

If there is a difference with regards to graduation and grades, this is not because the student is "white". I would instead say that this has something to do with finances and parenting rather than a tendency for teachers or exam markers to favour whites.

With regards to hunting for a job, in my experience I haven't been favoured due to my "whiteness", my job application has been based on my grades and experiences and skills.

I understand that with regards to board members and executives etc that they are generally old white men. My thoughts on this is that women find it harder because often many women take a few years off to take care of young children, this can give them some significant challenges towards building a career and towards getting back into the workforce.
With regards to the white-ness factor. I have noticed that people tend to stick to their own races. Blacks have black friends, whites have white friends (for whatever reason). Also going towards the high up jobs there is a significant off the radar job market where many don't go through the impersonal advertise and review applicants but instead find employees and jobs through their social networks. This means that if Whites are friends with whites then it is more likely they will hire a white when looking to their personal networks. This is one of the reasons why many people spend thousands of dollars sending their kids to private schools. Not necessarily because the education is better, but so that they can make networks with others that are likely going to be successful.

A white person who is not connected and is just going through the same advertised job markets as others has absolutely no "privilege" over non whites. A black person who has many connections will find they have "privilege" over this unconnected white person. Trying to tie this into the "whiteness" factor is like trying to blame ice cream consumption for increased drownings.
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27-06-2017, 09:54 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 10:03 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 09:39 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 09:38 PM)JesseB Wrote:  You insinuated

Thank you for explaining to me what I said.

Without doing so there would be no way of finding the miscommunication, you can attack me for it if you like I suppose however it would be irrational and counter productive. I didn't explain what you said, specifically I explained what others, including myself heard from what you said. I could very well be wrong and if I am, if that wasn't your intended message then without "explaining to me what I said" there would be no path for correction and no path to move forward.

I would again encourage you to take a deep breath and examine where this is coming from, if it's you talking or your ideology talking here. Or are you a post modernist, cause well if you are then there's no path forward you'll just hear whatever you imagine and pretend that is reality. I mean help me out here, what I said to you was correct. You seem to be admitting such, so are you then not engaging in an honest discussion or debate? If so then you're simply attacking someone for not being brainwashed in the same ideology as you? I don't want to think this is what's going on here. So help me out please.

Edit^ well seeing as you removed a rep point it seems clear you aren't interested in an open honest talk of any kind you are legitimately just attacking anyone who you view to be outside your special camp or group or ideological school of thought. Really I always thought better of you than that. If that's the case then there's nothing anyone can say to reason or communicate with you, either they blindly follow the same ideological godlike figure (in this case an idea) as you, or you'll attack them and hate them. That is terribly unfortunate. I hope you will reconsider the path you've chosen, I see this post modernism bullshit destroying my little brothers life, he's so brainwashed into the cult that no one is going to reach him and he's going to self destruct soon. I don't want that for anyone, not you, not him.





DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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27-06-2017, 10:01 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
I'd just like to add that things we keep saying about America are basically global standards. The modern racial wage gap, though it may vary from country to country, nonetheless exists throughout the world even in the most equal and least racist of countries, and the historical ramifications of being poor as it relates to one's financial opportunities and the opportunities of one's descendants regardless of colour, not to mention one's ability to navigate the legal system, have encompassed all nations and all periods of time past and present. The concept of those with control of human and material resources holding leverage over those without is as old as civilization.

At any rate... What's the solution? Keeping in mind that every time a law maker starts trying to present possible race based solutions, they're likely to alienate a particular class of impoverished voters (thereby losing support for said solutions) who are white and don't perceive themselves to be privileged. Even if we can accept, here, that white privilege exists, surely we can see the folly of trying to lecture people with hard, shitty lives on how easy they've got it and expecting results?

I think the more pragmatic approach would be to focus on financial inequality and leave race out of it. The fact that it's true is less relevant than whether or not focusing on it ultimately leads to a desired objective.

“Reality isn't the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. Either you acknowledge reality and use it to your benefit, or it will automatically work against you.”
― Robert J. Ringer, Winning Through Intimidation

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27-06-2017, 10:05 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 10:01 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I'd just like to add that things we keep saying about America are basically global standards. The modern racial wage gap, though it may vary from country to country, nonetheless exists throughout the world even in the most equal and least racist of countries, and the historical ramifications of being poor as it relates to one's financial opportunities and the opportunities of one's descendants regardless of colour, not to mention one's ability to navigate the legal system, have encompassed all nations and all periods of time past and present. The concept of those with control of human and material resources holding leverage over those without is as old as civilization.

At any rate... What's the solution? Keeping in mind that every time a law maker starts trying to present possible race based solutions, they're likely to alienate a particular class of impoverished voters (thereby losing support for said solutions) who are white and don't perceive themselves to be privileged. Even if we can accept, here, that white privilege exists, surely we can see the folly of trying to lecture people with hard, shitty lives on how easy they've got it and expecting results?

I think the more pragmatic approach would be to focus on financial inequality and leave race out of it. The fact that it's true is less relevant than whether or not focusing on it ultimately leads to a desired objective.

“Reality isn't the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. Either you acknowledge reality and use it to your benefit, or it will automatically work against you.”
― Robert J. Ringer, Winning Through Intimidation

That's pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say. You've said it much better than I however Yak

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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27-06-2017, 10:12 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 09:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 03:35 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  My thoughts on 'White Privilege' is it exist but only in certain places. It's true when we see a poor, white man this 'Privilege' seems to be just something to spark outrage in people of color.
Yet on the other hand, most people you find in power tend to be older white people who seem to not really care about those who are colored, even putting poor white people over poor color people.
White privilege does not exist, unless you are in some really racist place.

In my experience it is the absolute opposite.
When I went to school, there was a prize for the top student. There was also a prize for the top female and also a prize for the top Maori.
So if you were a female Maori you had three prizes you could win. If you were a non Maori female you had two prizes you could win. But if you were a non Maori male you only had one prize on offer. This prize you had to compete against females and Maori for.
So school was institutionalised in favour of females and Maori and especially Maori females.

I understand some people may come back and cite statistics regarding the demographics of those graduating from school. But that does not correlate to privilege from being a "white male". We all attend the same classes and sit the same tests.

If there is a difference with regards to graduation and grades, this is not because the student is "white". I would instead say that this has something to do with finances and parenting rather than a tendency for teachers or exam markers to favour whites.

With regards to hunting for a job, in my experience I haven't been favoured due to my "whiteness", my job application has been based on my grades and experiences and skills.

I understand that with regards to board members and executives etc that they are generally old white men. My thoughts on this is that women find it harder because often many women take a few years off to take care of young children, this can give them some significant challenges towards building a career and towards getting back into the workforce.
With regards to the white-ness factor. I have noticed that people tend to stick to their own races. Blacks have black friends, whites have white friends (for whatever reason). Also going towards the high up jobs there is a significant off the radar job market where many don't go through the impersonal advertise and review applicants but instead find employees and jobs through their social networks. This means that if Whites are friends with whites then it is more likely they will hire a white when looking to their personal networks. This is one of the reasons why many people spend thousands of dollars sending their kids to private schools. Not necessarily because the education is better, but so that they can make networks with others that are likely going to be successful.

A white person who is not connected and is just going through the same advertised job markets as others has absolutely no "privilege" over non whites. A black person who has many connections will find they have "privilege" over this unconnected white person. Trying to tie this into the "whiteness" factor is like trying to blame ice cream consumption for increased drownings.

Some non whites benefit in some ways from well intentioned initiatives designed to combat inequality. That black girl who always gets the awards just for showing up on time and always having shined boots and a freshly pressed uniform but who never actually does any work (I have a specific one in mind that always pissed me off if it's not obvious) is nonetheless an outlier compared to the impoverished inner city non-whites whose best option is to make some decent money selling drugs until they go to jail or die. Those are the ones who make up the statistics.

Nonetheless, that's why I'd again recommend focusing on aspects not directly related to race (i.e. income, education status, etc). Racial disparity, though statistically obvious, is not an absolute, and pushing for race based solutions is in contrast with the end goal of not judging someone based off of colour.

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27-06-2017, 10:23 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Black immigrants have much higher income than their locally born counterparts, and Asians kick everyone's ass. Thoughts on what they're doing right, and how they're doing it in large enough numbers to be statistically relevant? And I know that not all of them come from rich families. In the case of black immigrants, many of them came here right from war torn shit holes. And I've got a number of Chinese friends who've worked their way from illegal alien in debt to the triad for getting them over here to successful business owners.

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27-06-2017, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 10:40 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 10:23 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Black immigrants have much higher income than their locally born counterparts, and Asians kick everyone's ass. Thoughts on what they're doing right, and how they're doing it in large enough numbers to be statistically relevant? And I know that not all of them come from rich families. In the case of black immigrants, many of them came here right from war torn shit holes. And I've got a number of Chinese friends who've worked their way from illegal alien in debt to the triad for getting them over here to successful business owners.

Well I know one aspect of it is the American idea of family is bullshit. People from other cultures often live as a large family helping and supporting each other. My parents bought into the idea that when you kid turns 15 you kick them out on the streets so they can "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and that's sorta what mine did to me. I was eventually allowed to come back home for a couple more years then got kicked out again when I was 18. My parents like to brag about how no one paid for their college (they seem to fail to understand that their college cost less than 10,000 dollars total and was a useless bible school at that, but the real colleges were just as cheap at the time. That the wages now are about the same as they were then and inflation was much lower then and college now will end up costing me close to 90,000 dollars IF i'm lucky enough to find a way to GO to college which at this point is doubtful). If my parents had not bought the murica bullshit they'd have done what other family's do and this is help their kids and when their kids get older they'll help the parents and their children and so on to ensure the family even if it doesn't thrive is never destroyed. I'm confident that plays a role in why migrants like my cousins and myself (we're 3rd generation migrants) tend to do far worse than new immigrants who's family's haven't drank the coolaid

My family, well my mom was a migrant farm worker and literally a cotton picker. My dad was well... poor they had horses n stuff but they were still pretty poor. My mom's dad left them and my grandma was left to take care of 5 kids in a single room apartment about the size of the one I currently live in... oh wait did I say apartment? Not exactly more like a wood shack in the middle of a large field. I've been there, dirt floors sharing room with chickens. so I'm not sure all immigrants do better when they come to the US from other places, BUT for the ones that do I think it's mostly because we're a social species and we do best when we fucking work together and a strong family that helps each other is certainly an advantage in that respect.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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27-06-2017, 10:45 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 10:31 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 10:23 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Black immigrants have much higher income than their locally born counterparts, and Asians kick everyone's ass. Thoughts on what they're doing right, and how they're doing it in large enough numbers to be statistically relevant? And I know that not all of them come from rich families. In the case of black immigrants, many of them came here right from war torn shit holes. And I've got a number of Chinese friends who've worked their way from illegal alien in debt to the triad for getting them over here to successful business owners.

Well I know one aspect of it is the American idea of family is bullshit. People from other cultures often live as a large family helping and supporting each other. My parents bought into the idea that when you kid turns 15 you kick them out on the streets so they can "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and that's sorta what mine did to me. I was eventually allowed to come back home for a couple more years then got kicked out again when I was 18. My parents like to brag about how no one paid for their college (they seem to fail to understand that their college cost less than 10,000 dollars total and was a useless bible school at that, but the real colleges were just as cheap at the time. That the wages now are about the same as they were then and inflation was much lower then and college now will end up costing me close to 90,000 dollars IF i'm lucky enough to find a way to GO to college which at this point is doubtful). If my parents had not bought the murica bullshit they'd have done what other family's do and this is help their kids and when their kids get older they'll help the parents and their children and so on to ensure the family even if it doesn't thrive is never destroyed. I'm confident that plays a role in why migrants like my cousins and myself (we're 3rd generation migrants) tend to do far worse than new immigrants who's family's haven't drank the coolaid

My family, well my mom was a migrant farm worker and literally a cotton picker. My dad was well... poor they had horses n stuff but they were still pretty poor. My mom's dad left them and my grandma was left to take care of 5 kids in a single room apartment about the size of the one I currently live in... oh wait did I say apartment? Not exactly more like a wood shack in the middle of a large field. I've been there, dirt floors sharing room with chickens. so I'm not sure all immigrants do better when they come to the US from other places, BUT for the ones that do I think it's mostly because we're a social species and we do best when we fucking work together and a strong family that helps each other is certainly an advantage in that respect.

I actually miss the family aspect of rural China when I was with my ex-wife's family. I gotta admit that was one of the few times in my life that I actually stopped missing the military. As a member of that extended family, I actually felt like I had a purpose.

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27-06-2017, 10:53 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 10:45 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(27-06-2017 10:31 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Well I know one aspect of it is the American idea of family is bullshit. People from other cultures often live as a large family helping and supporting each other. My parents bought into the idea that when you kid turns 15 you kick them out on the streets so they can "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and that's sorta what mine did to me. I was eventually allowed to come back home for a couple more years then got kicked out again when I was 18. My parents like to brag about how no one paid for their college (they seem to fail to understand that their college cost less than 10,000 dollars total and was a useless bible school at that, but the real colleges were just as cheap at the time. That the wages now are about the same as they were then and inflation was much lower then and college now will end up costing me close to 90,000 dollars IF i'm lucky enough to find a way to GO to college which at this point is doubtful). If my parents had not bought the murica bullshit they'd have done what other family's do and this is help their kids and when their kids get older they'll help the parents and their children and so on to ensure the family even if it doesn't thrive is never destroyed. I'm confident that plays a role in why migrants like my cousins and myself (we're 3rd generation migrants) tend to do far worse than new immigrants who's family's haven't drank the coolaid

My family, well my mom was a migrant farm worker and literally a cotton picker. My dad was well... poor they had horses n stuff but they were still pretty poor. My mom's dad left them and my grandma was left to take care of 5 kids in a single room apartment about the size of the one I currently live in... oh wait did I say apartment? Not exactly more like a wood shack in the middle of a large field. I've been there, dirt floors sharing room with chickens. so I'm not sure all immigrants do better when they come to the US from other places, BUT for the ones that do I think it's mostly because we're a social species and we do best when we fucking work together and a strong family that helps each other is certainly an advantage in that respect.

I actually miss the family aspect of rural China when I was with my ex-wife's family. I gotta admit that was one of the few times in my life that I actually stopped missing the military. As a member of that extended family, I actually felt like I had a purpose.

I wish I could once know what it's like to have a real family, and be loved. But fuck reality doesn't give a fuck about me, and neither does anyone else, so that'll never happen. lol

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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27-06-2017, 11:00 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(27-06-2017 10:23 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Black immigrants have much higher income than their locally born counterparts, and Asians kick everyone's ass. Thoughts on what they're doing right, and how they're doing it in large enough numbers to be statistically relevant? And I know that not all of them come from rich families. In the case of black immigrants, many of them came here right from war torn shit holes. And I've got a number of Chinese friends who've worked their way from illegal alien in debt to the triad for getting them over here to successful business owners.
I have some knowledge of Chinese culture being married to a Chinese woman (and association to her Chinese relations).
Of course my understanding is limited to my experiences and I am going to generalise here.

Chinese in my country do not have the thoughts of entitlement on their mind. They do not feel they are indigenous and hence do not feel they are owed anything.

So instead they make the most of what they have and they think forwards.
They put a lot of effort into school and studies, and they have a large culture of respect for their parents and show that by achieving good grades and getting good jobs.
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