Does White Privilege Exist?
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28-06-2017, 09:08 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 09:01 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Maybe, but not for long.
China is about to reassume it's position as the largest, most important, most productive, most well-educated, and country with the best infrastructure on the planet.

If it'll make my Chinese fluency more marketable, then
[Image: 17920079-China-flag-Hand-showing-thumbs-...Vector.jpg]

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28-06-2017, 09:25 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
Big surprise, I'm a white guy who doesn't like the term White Privilege. Not because I don't think it's real - but because I don't think it goes far enough to describe the problem.

The issue is that white people are generally more able to exercise all their freedoms and liberties and their pursuit of happiness, unhindered by the presumption of guilt or suspicion that people of color suffer with. But this doesn't mean that white people are PRIVILEGED, or living with benefits they don't deserve, it means that everyone else is REPRESSED. The daily injustices that people of color have to deal with are not a result of me being privileged. I don't have more justice and liberty than I should - it's that they don't have enough.

Calling my free exercise of my rights a "privilege" is somewhat dangerous I think. It's not that white heterosexual cisgendered males should have LESS justice or opportunity, it's that everybody else should have MORE.
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28-06-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
I think the term privilege does hit people wrong. White people who struggle resent the term because they don't feel "privileged". They feel oppressed. And they are oppressed, but experience less oppression than people of color, as you state Mr. Boston.

Acknowledging that you have that benefit is a good thing. Having privilege doesn't make you a bad person. We probably all have some level of privilege that others don't... or rather, most of us experience less oppression than others- but many of us experience some level of oppression.

A Christian has privileges in a majority-Christian country that us atheists do not. They can talk freely about their thoughts on God in most environments, whereas atheists have to be more guarded about when they think it might negatively impact them. In many cases in America, for example, being a Christian is treat as being "default"- just like white is the "default", or the normal, in so many situations. So when Christianity's treated as "default", a person of any other religion (or lack of religion) faces a varying degrees of bias in situations like housing, jobs, health care, etc. if religion is somehow introduced into the situation. And when it's the default, it can be introduced in unexpected ways.
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28-06-2017, 12:08 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 09:25 AM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  The issue is that white people are generally more able to exercise all their freedoms and liberties and their pursuit of happiness, unhindered by the presumption of guilt or suspicion that people of color suffer with. But this doesn't mean that white people are PRIVILEGED, or living with benefits they don't deserve, it means that everyone else is REPRESSED. The daily injustices that people of color have to deal with are not a result of me being privileged. I don't have more justice and liberty than I should - it's that they don't have enough...

Well said. As an older white person living on an aged pension (which is less than the national poverty income level of $426.30 a week), I certainly don't have any "privileges" that many of my neighbours enjoy without a second thought.

Quote:Calling my free exercise of my rights a "privilege" is somewhat dangerous I think.

I also agree that the inference of white privilege—as a given—is erroneous. And no; it simply doesn't exist.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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28-06-2017, 12:22 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 12:08 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 09:25 AM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  The issue is that white people are generally more able to exercise all their freedoms and liberties and their pursuit of happiness, unhindered by the presumption of guilt or suspicion that people of color suffer with. But this doesn't mean that white people are PRIVILEGED, or living with benefits they don't deserve, it means that everyone else is REPRESSED. The daily injustices that people of color have to deal with are not a result of me being privileged. I don't have more justice and liberty than I should - it's that they don't have enough...

Well said. As an older white person living on an aged pension (which is less than the national poverty income level of $426.30 a week), I certainly don't have any "privileges" that many of my neighbours enjoy without a second thought.

The injustices are not a result of the privilege, no. That's not what privilege is- it's not a causal force, it's a description of the differential in the biases you face for a variety of reasons. It's that, while perhaps you don't feel like you live a privileged life (you're not wealthy, for example), perhaps if you were in your same situation, but had black skin (assuming you're white) instead of white skin- then you might face those additional daily injustices. You have what many people are calling "privilege" since you don't have to face those additional injustices on top of those you do face.
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28-06-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
I guess the crux of the issue for me is that expanding civil rights and access to justice and equality to more people does not in any way reduce my own. I think that's a challenging perspective that many people who reside in any majority have a hard time squaring. Marriage equality is a great example. Letting people other than cisgendered heterosexuals get married does not in ANY WAY diminish or devalue straight marriage. There really is no reason to feel threatened by it.

It's the same thing with race as far as I'm concerned. Letting black people use the same drinking fountains did not diminish the cleanliness and quality of refreshment of the water. Only ignorant people would claim otherwise.
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28-06-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 12:47 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  I guess the crux of the issue for me is that expanding civil rights and access to justice and equality to more people does not in any way reduce my own. I think that's a challenging perspective that many people who reside in any majority have a hard time squaring. Marriage equality is a great example. Letting people other than cisgendered heterosexuals get married does not in ANY WAY diminish or devalue straight marriage. There really is no reason to feel threatened by it.

It's the same thing with race as far as I'm concerned. Letting black people use the same drinking fountains did not diminish the cleanliness and quality of refreshment of the water. Only ignorant people would claim otherwise.

While I agree with you, there's a decided difference between that and what's going on at Evergreen college for example. There is a problem here, and it's a big problem. I haven't denied at any point that racism exists, in fact I've explained how it exists in more places and cultures than people seem willing to admit. The problem isn't that we shouldn't allow and promote equal protection under the law, equal access to the justice system and other things my brain hasn't fully started up yet this morning. The problem is some people are swinging so far to the other side that they don't realize they are swinging too far in the other direction and are just as fascist dictatorial oppressive bullying abusive as the Nazis they love to scream about and punch (and for the record they aren't actually punching Nazis they just scream your a Nazi at anyone who questions their doctrine and then proceeds to begin with the punching either verbal or literal, you can find examples of both, I've met REAL Nazis I've never met one that openly said that's what they were though, just walked into this customers house and saw Nazi flags n shit all over and was like "oh fuck" I sure as hell didn't punch him I was too concerned about getting out alive).

I only got involved in this discussion because Ruby was clearly being attacked and bullied and I could see no reasonable justification for it. If I was at Evergreen I'd prolly stand up against that madness too, it might even cost me my life to do so, but these kids are out of their fucking minds (I say kids when in reality they are my fucking age!), their Social Justice thing is a cult it's a faith based belief system that cherry picks data, outright lies, demands acceptance on faith, is intolerant of any questions The only difference between it and religion is the existence of a godlike figure, well in this case the ideology is the godlike figure. I can't stand by and watch someone whom I've talked to quite a lot, someone I kinda like and think is a pretty ok person (and I don't think that of many people) have their words twisted and get attacked for things they never said and don't think. And fuck belief I hate the word belief, what you think is what fucking matters, belief implies you hold a thought more strongly than you aught and usually without proper justification for such. I don't "believe" in fucking climate change, I understand the fucking science and know that it is accurate and reliable. AND I can properly question when I see things that aren't reliable and not just swallow it cause someone put global warming labels all over it. From my perspective Ideology is the same as religion, and what the world needs is people to abandon both start fucking thinking for themselves.

And if you're wondering why I mention stuff that's going on outside the forums (as if the world outside the forums is somehow irrelevant), it's because I suspect some of the attacks against Ruby stem from that disgusting ideology.

I would agree with Yak you'll make far more headway on racism by working on the general wealth inequality across the board in the long run. The more everyone spends time together, and the less barriers there are for achieving one's goals, the more people will be forced to see we aren't as different as racist parents want to tell us there is.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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28-06-2017, 01:39 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 01:16 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(28-06-2017 12:47 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  I guess the crux of the issue for me is that expanding civil rights and access to justice and equality to more people does not in any way reduce my own. I think that's a challenging perspective that many people who reside in any majority have a hard time squaring. Marriage equality is a great example. Letting people other than cisgendered heterosexuals get married does not in ANY WAY diminish or devalue straight marriage. There really is no reason to feel threatened by it.

It's the same thing with race as far as I'm concerned. Letting black people use the same drinking fountains did not diminish the cleanliness and quality of refreshment of the water. Only ignorant people would claim otherwise.

While I agree with you, there's a decided difference between that and what's going on at Evergreen college for example. There is a problem here, and it's a big problem. I haven't denied at any point that racism exists, in fact I've explained how it exists in more places and cultures than people seem willing to admit. The problem isn't that we shouldn't allow and promote equal protection under the law, equal access to the justice system and other things my brain hasn't fully started up yet this morning. The problem is some people are swinging so far to the other side that they don't realize they are swinging too far in the other direction and are just as fascist dictatorial oppressive bullying abusive as the Nazis they love to scream about and punch (and for the record they aren't actually punching Nazis they just scream your a Nazi at anyone who questions their doctrine and then proceeds to begin with the punching either verbal or literal, you can find examples of both, I've met REAL Nazis I've never met one that openly said that's what they were though, just walked into this customers house and saw Nazi flags n shit all over and was like "oh fuck" I sure as hell didn't punch him I was too concerned about getting out alive).

I only got involved in this discussion because Ruby was clearly being attacked and bullied and I could see no reasonable justification for it. If I was at Evergreen I'd prolly stand up against that madness too, it might even cost me my life to do so, but these kids are out of their fucking minds (I say kids when in reality they are my fucking age!), their Social Justice thing is a cult it's a faith based belief system that cherry picks data, outright lies, demands acceptance on faith, is intolerant of any questions The only difference between it and religion is the existence of a godlike figure, well in this case the ideology is the godlike figure. I can't stand by and watch someone whom I've talked to quite a lot, someone I kinda like and think is a pretty ok person (and I don't think that of many people) have their words twisted and get attacked for things they never said and don't think. And fuck belief I hate the word belief, what you think is what fucking matters, belief implies you hold a thought more strongly than you aught and usually without proper justification for such. I don't "believe" in fucking climate change, I understand the fucking science and know that it is accurate and reliable. AND I can properly question when I see things that aren't reliable and not just swallow it cause someone put global warming labels all over it. From my perspective Ideology is the same as religion, and what the world needs is people to abandon both start fucking thinking for themselves.

And if you're wondering why I mention stuff that's going on outside the forums (as if the world outside the forums is somehow irrelevant), it's because I suspect some of the attacks against Ruby stem from that disgusting ideology.

I would agree with Yak you'll make far more headway on racism by working on the general wealth inequality across the board in the long run. The more everyone spends time together, and the less barriers there are for achieving one's goals, the more people will be forced to see we aren't as different as racist parents want to tell us there is.

I guess that's what I get for skipping the majority of the thread- I didn't realize Ruby was being attacked.

I certainly didn't intend any of my posts to attack anyone. Just to try to explain what privilege means and how it exists.
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28-06-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 05:30 AM)julep Wrote:  Except that a number of studies have shown that affirmative-action hires generally do just as well on the job as others. This article is, admittedly, from the Huffington Post, a liberal-leaning source.
I have heard that in Malaysia, people try to avoid Malay Doctors.
The Malay students get a quota of places in universities, which is why many Chinese Malaysian students go overseas to study. For Chinese to study to be a doctor in Malaysia they need far higher grades than of their "privileged" Malay counterparts.

This doesn't go unnoticed by the populace whom seek out non Malay doctors for their health care needs.
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28-06-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: Does White Privilege Exist?
(28-06-2017 08:23 AM)Emma Wrote:  Consider this- a poor white man and a poor black man. Given that both have the same opportunities presented to them, a black person will have to fight the additional biases against them in every situation where the white man will not. Both have biases working against them, but a black person has the additional bias of their skin color working against them.
What are these biases, what is the possible causes and how can this be turned around?

If it is about biases then it certainly isn't "white priviledge" this is somehow pointing at the whites as the cause, suggesting we are giving each other secret handshakes and winks and favouring each other for jobs etc.
There is no secret white privilege society as far as I know.

If the problem is generalisations about blacks then it is to do with the blacks as a group and their reputations, it isn't "privileged whites" putting them in this situation.
It is human nature to generalise, to come to some kind of judgement on a stranger.
If blacks are causing the lion share of crimes then people will be weary of blacks.
The thing about being part of the "black group" is that it isn't something you can hide. An Atheist can hide their non belief, a black can't hide their skin colour.

But if the problem is that a high percentage of blacks commit crimes, then the solution is to try to prevent blacks from committing crimes rather than to gift blacks positions in schools that others need to compete for, or jobs that others need to compete for.
If blacks are committing the crimes then why is this happening? Is it because they are poor? Is it because of their upbringing? Is it because they have a grudge against society? It is definitely not because of white privilege.
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