Does a powerful computer search its maker?
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25-11-2016, 10:28 AM
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
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25-11-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
Computers don't search their makers, they search data structures that make up a search space.
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25-11-2016, 08:11 PM
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
(25-11-2016 08:44 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I think you underestimate the power of the brain, even in small animals like the rat, feel emotion, and elephants can paint... usually better than monkeys. While the Bonobo can communicate with us to some degree if we teach them sign language.

Animals have what are called "communications systems"—but no language ability. They can't create unique expressions or abstract notions. They can communicate with ASL only what they could cognate without it, such as hunger and thirst, fear or anger, or particular discomfort etc. They definitely aren't capable of creating complex and unique sentences that encompass original ideas. And most of their responses are purely Pavlovian—particularly where food rewards are offered.

One of the issues with animals using ASL is that they lack the digital dexterity to perform it successfully. And no, elephants cannot paint; the videos are all a specially staged con by their handlers. It's all very skillfully pulled off such that most tourists, even on the spot, are fooled. But you'll notice that all the elephants have a similar repertoire of the same 3 or 4 pictures just repeated over and over again.

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25-11-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
Off topic. .....Offtopic Every time I quickly look at KerimF's name I think it's short for Kermit the Frog.

Just sayin.


Ok, carry on.......

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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25-11-2016, 10:45 PM
Does a powerful computer search its maker?
(25-11-2016 08:32 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Off topic. .....Offtopic Every time I quickly look at KerimF's name I think it's short for Kermit the Frog.

Just sayin.


Ok, carry on.......


Agreed.
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25-11-2016, 11:58 PM
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
(25-11-2016 08:11 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(25-11-2016 08:44 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I think you underestimate the power of the brain, even in small animals like the rat, feel emotion, and elephants can paint... usually better than monkeys. While the Bonobo can communicate with us to some degree if we teach them sign language.

Animals have what are called "communications systems"—but no language ability. They can't create unique expressions or abstract notions. They can communicate with ASL only what they could cognate without it, such as hunger and thirst, fear or anger, or particular discomfort etc. They definitely aren't capable of creating complex and unique sentences that encompass original ideas. And most of their responses are purely Pavlovian—particularly where food rewards are offered.

One of the issues with animals using ASL is that they lack the digital dexterity to perform it successfully. And no, elephants cannot paint; the videos are all a specially staged con by their handlers. It's all very skillfully pulled off such that most tourists, even on the spot, are fooled. But you'll notice that all the elephants have a similar repertoire of the same 3 or 4 pictures just repeated over and over again.

Consider
Science doesn't sit still so ... you might want to update your information on "no language ability" among great apes.

Check out the information on both Kanzi and of course, Koko. They aren't the only ones but they are the more famous ones.

And yes - Koko has made sentences - while not "complex", she has used her vocabulary "creatively", has expressed abstract ideas, and expressed reasons for her choices. She may be only about as creative as a toddler might be but still, there is creative use of language tools.

However, I don't think the elephants who have "painted", don't give a shit about anything they are doing with a paint brush. Consider Of course, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong - I've never actually researched the painting elephants. Shy

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26-11-2016, 12:32 AM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2016 12:39 AM by Loom.)
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
(25-11-2016 11:58 PM)kim Wrote:  
(25-11-2016 08:11 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Animals have what are called "communications systems"—but no language ability. They can't create unique expressions or abstract notions. They can communicate with ASL only what they could cognate without it, such as hunger and thirst, fear or anger, or particular discomfort etc. They definitely aren't capable of creating complex and unique sentences that encompass original ideas. And most of their responses are purely Pavlovian—particularly where food rewards are offered.

One of the issues with animals using ASL is that they lack the digital dexterity to perform it successfully. And no, elephants cannot paint; the videos are all a specially staged con by their handlers. It's all very skillfully pulled off such that most tourists, even on the spot, are fooled. But you'll notice that all the elephants have a similar repertoire of the same 3 or 4 pictures just repeated over and over again.

Consider
Science doesn't sit still so ... you might want to update your information on "no language ability" among great apes.

Check out the information on both Kanzi and of course, Koko. They aren't the only ones but they are the more famous ones.

And yes - Koko has made sentences - while not "complex", she has used her vocabulary "creatively", has expressed abstract ideas, and expressed reasons for her choices. She may be only about as creative as a toddler might be but still, there is creative use of language tools.

However, I don't think the elephants who have "painted", don't give a shit about anything they are doing with a paint brush. Consider Of course, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong - I've never actually researched the painting elephants. Shy

From what I've gathered on painting elephants, usually they are trained (and if it's not in a country that has protections for animals animals, they were likely beaten to do it).

Dolphins also have a sort of rudimentary language. They have names (that they give themselves, if I remember right). They will can recognize their name and will respond when their name is 'called.'

Some birds, namely parrots and relatives, develope their own signature 'accent' or 'name' depending on the parents who raise them. Other parrots can recognize them this way (among other ways).

Sure it's not all straightforward as human language is, but it's still pretty awesome how complex animal communication can be.

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26-11-2016, 12:52 AM
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
(25-11-2016 11:58 PM)kim Wrote:  However, I don't think the elephants who have "painted", don't give a shit about anything they are doing with a paint brush. Consider Of course, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong - I've never actually researched the painting elephants. Shy

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/ele...inting.asp

Quote:

I was recently sent an email video which shows an elephant painting a picture of an elephant holding a flower over its head and was asked to comment on it. As you may or may not know, I returned home last night after my 7th trip to Chiang Mai, Thailand, where the video was shot. I can tell you with absolute certainty that elephant did not create that picture out of a need for a creative outlet. It was trained to follow the mahout's (trainer) command and was purely following orders out of fear of the abuse it suffered during the training process.

If you look closely during the wide angle shots you will see other mahouts standing on their elephant's left side and they too are leading their elephant during the process. The close ups show an elephant's trunk moving a paint brush across a canvas and it appears to be creating a picture, except it is taking commands from its mahout who is out of the shot.

The training process is called the 'phajaan' or 'crush' and is centuries old and is used throughout Asia today. It involves taking a 3-year-old baby from its mother's side and roping it into a small bamboo cage in which it cannot move except to breathe. Of course the elephant fights for its freedom and is beaten, poked with sharp bamboo, starved, dehydrated, and sleep-deprived until it submits to its captors' demands. The process may take a week, depending on how long it takes to 'crush' the elephant's spirit. About 50% of the babies die from the process and the survivors are left with physical and emotional scars for the rest of their lives.

The demand for elephant paintings comes mostly from Japan, Europe, and the US, and the motivation from the Thai people is purely financial since a single painting can fetch several thousand dollars. I honestly hope that if people knew the true process for creating a picture, they would not offer any support at all for it. So PLEASE tell your friends, family, anyone who will listen: DO NOT SUPPORT ELEPHANT PAINTINGS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-11-2016, 02:20 AM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2016 03:21 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
(25-11-2016 08:11 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(25-11-2016 08:44 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I think you underestimate the power of the brain, even in small animals like the rat, feel emotion, and elephants can paint... usually better than monkeys. While the Bonobo can communicate with us to some degree if we teach them sign language.

Animals have what are called "communications systems"—but no language ability. They can't create unique expressions or abstract notions. They can communicate with ASL only what they could cognate without it, such as hunger and thirst, fear or anger, or particular discomfort etc. They definitely aren't capable of creating complex and unique sentences that encompass original ideas. And most of their responses are purely Pavlovian—particularly where food rewards are offered.

One of the issues with animals using ASL is that they lack the digital dexterity to perform it successfully. And no, elephants cannot paint; the videos are all a specially staged con by their handlers. It's all very skillfully pulled off such that most tourists, even on the spot, are fooled. But you'll notice that all the elephants have a similar repertoire of the same 3 or 4 pictures just repeated over and over again.

We were talking about emotions, not complex thought. Or at least I was, he was referring to instinct so he could have been talking about complex thought and not emotion but... to me when people say instinct I take it to mean that they view it as something akin to a computer, which computers don't have emotion.
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26-11-2016, 03:50 AM
RE: Does a powerful computer search its maker?
(25-11-2016 08:11 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Animals have what are called "communications systems"—but no language ability. They can't create unique expressions or abstract notions. They can communicate with ASL only what they could cognate without it, such as hunger and thirst, fear or anger, or particular discomfort etc. They definitely aren't capable of creating complex and unique sentences that encompass original ideas. And most of their responses are purely Pavlovian—particularly where food rewards are offered.

(25-11-2016 11:58 PM)kim Wrote:  Science doesn't sit still so ... you might want to update your information on "no language ability" among great apes.

Check out the information on both Kanzi and of course, Koko. They aren't the only ones but they are the more famous ones.

I did a bit of research and found these two sites that throw a lot of doubt on Kanzi's and Koko's communication skills and/or comprehension abilities:
More on Monkey Talk, by Herbert S. Terrace and What Do Talking Apes Really Tell Us? by Jane C. Hu.

(25-11-2016 11:58 PM)kim Wrote:  And yes - Koko has made sentences - while not "complex", she has used her vocabulary "creatively", has expressed abstract ideas, and expressed reasons for her choices. She may be only about as creative as a toddler might be but still, there is creative use of language tools. [...]

From the first article, it's reported that Koko produced utterances (sentences?) of structurally unrelated signs such as mess red thirsty mouth thirsty, and please milk please me like apple bottle. I don't think that could be called creative or abstract.

I personally tend to agree with the skeptics; that the animals are being prompted by their carers, as they're the only people that can purportedly communicate successfully with them, and that the carers are overly interpreting and re-forming the animal's responses (even inadvertently) to questions put to them—and again only by their carers.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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