Does anybody else hate this argument?
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01-02-2015, 09:28 AM
Does anybody else hate this argument?
- God is the most perfect ('the greatest') being conceivable
- It is more perfect ('greater') to exist than not to exist.
- Therefore, God must exist.

Another variation of the argument of ontological perfection (if we can conceive god as a perfect being, he exists!):
- God is the most perfect imaginable being
- The fact we can conceive god as perfect means there is nothing more perfect
- Therefore, god must exist

--> I really hate this argument - So because we can mentally conceive something, it simply exists? It fails on the first premise already because I could argue there are things far more perfect than god - In fact, the Christian god isn't a good example of perfection.

Post theist arguments that you hate. Maybe we could make a tournament and see which one wins as the "most annoying"

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-02-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
Perfect is an absolute state and not subject to gradation.

Therefore "more perfect" does not exist - ipso facto - nor does this "God" person.


problem solved

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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01-02-2015, 11:18 AM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
Perfection is a term that only exists in the imagination, therefore if someone uses this term to describe a god, they're only describing something that's only a concept in their mind, there is no tangible example of perfection in reality, it can't even be defined. (Just like god)

Anything that invokes absolutes to describe a deity is automatic fail.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-02-2015, 11:32 AM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2015 11:38 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
I can conceive of your god with big bouncy boobs.

That's way more perfect. My imaginary god wins.

Checkmate.

Big Grin

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01-02-2015, 11:33 AM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
here's everything wrong with it

great and perfect words are addressed a bit after half way through








can we get a new argument any time soon ?
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01-02-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
- God is the most perfect imaginable asshole
- The fact we can conceive god as perfect asshole means there is nothing more perfectly assholic
- Therefore, god is an asshole and must exist

You can insert just about any adjective and I think it would work.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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01-02-2015, 12:04 PM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
(01-02-2015 09:28 AM)Blackout Wrote:  ... It is more perfect ('greater') to exist than not to exist ...

That's debatable. Pointless suffering exists. Violent reaction to cartoons exists. Crippling ignorance exists. Corrupt governments exist. Etc. The list of things whose non-existence would be "greater" than their existence could very well be infinite.

Thus sheer existence is not equal to "perfection". Likewise, "perfection" does not equal existence. I can imagine a perfect tesseract made of 1/8" steel plate. But try to make one. Try to construct in three dimensional space any of Escher's perfect architectural depictions. The list of perfect things imaginable that could not possibly exist could also be infinite.

What IS certain is that the gods most commonly imagined exist on BOTH lists: the list of things whose non-existence improves the universe, and the list of things that could not possibly exist.
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01-02-2015, 12:09 PM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
(01-02-2015 11:53 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  - God is the most perfect imaginable asshole
- The fact we can conceive god as perfect asshole means there is nothing more perfectly assholic
- Therefore, god is an asshole and must exist

You can insert just about any adjective and I think it would work.

ok

- God is the most rotten piece of fish meat imaginable
- The fact we can conceive god as perfect piece of rotten fish meat means there is nothing more perfectly rotten than this rotten piece of fish meat
- Therefore, god is a rotten piece of fish meat and must exist

did I win ? Big Grin
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01-02-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
I was watching a video of the Atheist Experience television show the other day and Matt Dilahunty had a perfect answer to this argument. He said something like "hey, a still greater God would be able to do all this stuff while not existing, therefore god does not exist. I thought that was brilliant.

Yes this argument violates the primacy of existence. We don't define things into existence and just because we can imagine a god does not mean it is possible for it to exist.

My all time most hated one is the straw man. You guys think that lightning hit a methane cloud, bounced off a rock, hit a mud puddle and poof a kangaroo just appeared. That's impossible so it must have been god.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-02-2015, 01:34 PM
RE: Does anybody else hate this argument?
The first time I heard that argument, I kept waiting for the rest of it.

It is the single stupidest God argument ever. It is nonsense from start to finish.

Anyone who thinks that argument has any meaning or merit is a fool.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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