Does anyone else struggle with this?
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10-10-2013, 11:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2013 11:53 AM by Skippy538.)
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
Good luck and let us know how it goes! Big Grin

EDIT: By the way, I heart you signature bar. It's sweet. Cheers!

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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10-10-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
(10-10-2013 11:38 AM)Skippy538 Wrote:  Good luck and let us know how it goes! Big Grin

EDIT: By the way, I heart you signature bar. It's sweet. Cheers!

Thanks, and I will for sure let y'all know. Some things will be easier to pursue on my own than others as there are things that I think will make me happy that more or less require his participation, but still I'll do what I can.

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10-10-2013, 09:42 PM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2013 09:56 PM by Skippy538.)
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
(10-10-2013 12:14 PM)Escape Artist Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 11:38 AM)Skippy538 Wrote:  SNIP

Thanks, and I will for sure let y'all know. Some things will be easier to pursue on my own than others as there are things that I think will make me happy that more or less require his participation, but still I'll do what I can.

Remember though - this is a bit of a test. Don't JUST do the things you can do on your own, not give him a chance and then resent him. Also discuss and plan out one or two things you want to do with his participation, and see how it goes. If he struggles with change, as I suspect, the first two or three will probably not go great. He might do well on the third and fourth, but its hard to guess. Eventually he will either see he does or does not want a part of these things you must do for yourself. Then you have your answer, and he will have made it. And you will already be on your way to your new life.

To do this right, you really have to clean the slate. You are already in the habit of resenting him - the temptation to make a half-hearted effort to include him, and then judge him when he fails because he doesn't feel you really want him there is too great. To give him a genuine chance, you have to give him the opportunity to succeed - to the point where you even try to help him succeed in it. Don't fall back into passive aggressiveness and judgment - see him as a new person who could totally surprise you. (this is hard). This is the only way to feel fully content when you decide for the divorce - if you really really give him a fair, real chance. Then your conscience will be clear. Really this is as much for you as it is for him.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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11-10-2013, 07:00 AM
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
(10-10-2013 09:42 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  (this is hard).

Tell me about it. It's very hard to entrust your heart to someone who's broken it so many times before. A lot of times I feel like I can't open back up, that it's out of my control, that it's too painful to do so. Honestly I don't even know how to begin to do that. That is often where I get stuck.

Thanks again for all your advice. Hug

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11-10-2013, 08:46 AM
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
You can do it. Forget the past completely, pretend it doesn't exist. This whole endeavor should take 6 months or so. He will let you down again. BUT - At the end, you will have total peace with yours and his decision - for the rest of your life. That would be worth it- no?

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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11-10-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
Yeah, it would be nice to walk away having no regrets, to be able to move forward knowing I did everything I could to make it work. I just... wonder if I'm not fooling myself.

I know how I am. When I first meet someone, because they've given me no reason not to trust them, I tend to trust them in a very childlike fashion. I think the best of them, see their good characteristics (and very often, only their good characteristics), brushing aside the few bad ones that present themselves and even these I can usually paint in a positive light that makes me sympathetic toward why they might be that way, and so my trust is not earned, but lost.

Granted, it takes a very long time to lose my trust - you have to hurt me over and over and over again. I will forgive you your errs many, many more times than maybe I ought to. But there does come a time when even I can no longer forgive. I have no way of knowing when any particular slight will be the last straw. I only know when it's been drawn. And once it has, there is no going back to the way things were.

I will never feel for you what I did before, I will never again have that wonderful, implicit trust in you that I so enjoyed in the beginning. I can ponder over your actions, even intellectually understand why you did what you did, but my heart is stone at that point and refuses to de-thaw. Even if I would very much like to forgive you at this point, it hardly feels like it's up to me anymore.

That's how things progressed with my mother (the most intimate relationship I've ever had, aside from my husband) and here I am now, 13 years after that last straw was drawn and she can tell me time and time again how much she loves me, how much she misses the closeness we once had, how she is sorry for the things she did that hurt me, and it just doesn't matter to me. I won't be cruel to her, but I don't care to be around her and I certainly don't crave her attentions or affections anymore. I will be only as kind to her as I have to be so as not to induce a crying spell on her part. She had her chance to prove that she loved me, that night in my bedroom when she found out I was pregnant at the tender age of 16, and she blew it.

You might wonder, isn't there anything she could do that would restore your feelings of love for her? I wonder that, too, and I've no answer to that question. I don't know that there is anything she can do to mend things. Same goes for my husband. It's difficult for me to articulate just what line it was that was crossed that hurt me so, and therefore I don't know how he might get himself back behind that line once again. I want to say it was just a build-up of things - my being desperate for his attention and affection and his rejecting me over and over, his dismissal and trivialization of my feelings, his repeated attacks on my hopes and dreams, his tendency to manipulate me using things I'm quite sensitive about - namely my sexuality and my aversion to conflict - and that I just finally reached my threshold of pain and shut down out of self-preservation.

Sometimes - okay, a lot of times - it feels like it'd just be so much easier to call it quits than to work at really and truly forgiving him to the point that my feelings return with the strength and passion they once had (because if the best that'll ever come of it is that I'll feel friendly toward him, I want none of it - I want to feel passionate and strong love for him, like I used to, and if I can't have that with him again, I want someone new). I feel like I've already worked at this, worked on making things better, for much of the ten-plus years we've been married and he's only just now coming on board and only because I wanted a divorce. Like all of a sudden he decided it might be a good idea to try and hang on to me. I feel like if he really loved me, he would have worked to keep me all these years. But he didn't.

Somewhere along the way, he forgot that I was special, and his seeing me as special, treating me as special, was one of the biggest reasons I fell for him. No one ever noticed me in high school. Not for good reasons, and here he came along and looked at me like I was the most precious thing he'd ever come across, and then a few years down the road it all went by the wayside.

I guess what hurts the most is that I thought he was different and he proved to me that he's the same as everyone else who ever took advantage of and hurt me.

Ugh, I'm rambling again.

I just know that I told him that if I can't feel romantically toward him, if I can't get back to feeling that kind of passionate love for him that I once felt (and did feel for him for a long time) for him again, then I'm out. I don't want to be married to someone who just feels like a friend with benefits.

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11-10-2013, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2013 05:27 PM by Skippy538.)
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
Then maybe its too far gone. Sounds like you already know what you want and you just want someone to tell you that its ok. Kiddo, its ok. Be happy. Do what will make you truly, fully, embarrassingly happy.

But let me point out something to you, if I may. When you say "I know how I am" that's actually an agreement you've made with yourself. You are saying "this is how I'm built" when the reality is, "this is how I have chosen to be, if makes me feel the most safe." That's fine - but be honest with yourself. You are in a defensive mode, trying to protect yourself. You can choose to put the defensive mode down for a night if you so choose, but to do so you don't want to put him into power. Understandable. So don't. Decide for one night that tonight, anything he says to you will not hurt your feelings, regardless of how rude or insensitive. Stay with the comment, observe it, but choose NOT to react. You have this power, yes? Of course you do.

In Zen they talk about seeing things as if for the first time. What I'm saying is, you need to start to view your husband with new eyes, and start from scratch. What would I think of this person if I didn't know him, and didn't have a history with him? I'm not saying the answer will be good - from the sound of it, it might be bad. But the goal is to start to view him objectively, like an outsider. Experience him anew, from scratch. Pretend its a first date, or even a tenth date. Would he have passed or failed?

If its travel, then travel. If its yoga class, or running with the bulls, or skydiving, or whatever you feel like you want to do before you die, then do it. Maybe he will be there, maybe he won't. Either way, start doing those things with strength and courage. Rekindle the passion in your dreams and be unforgivingly single-minded about accomplishing them. Once you start living, really living, of course he will be attracted you again. Either way, stop living your life in reference to him. Don't let him define you, for good or for bad. You define you.

Think of it this way - right now you have a built-in babysitter - USE IT. If its the symphony, get tickets for next week. Start doing the things you want to be doing. Tell him "I am going to the Symphony next Friday to listen to Mozart, do you want to come?" If the answer is no, be cool and say - "OK No problem. Can you watch the kids for me?" And be genuinely without spite that he is not coming - he doesn't have to. I don't know your life, but it sounds like you keep trying to pull him along. Don't - be completely ambivalent. And don't let him come out of guilt - well I guess I should go with you... No no no. Say, honey, Only come if you find it interesting, otherwise, don't, really its fine. When you go, have a glass of wine at the bar before the show, and just enjoy watching people. Believe you are free, act free, and you will feel more free. Fake it until you make it. It works, trust me.

Be courageous, start today. You don't know how many days you have in this world.

If you still have problems with this, I would recommend you start to listen to the Happiness Through Self-Awareness Podcasts by Gary Van Warmerdam. Also, I would read "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. You have the power to be the master of your life. You need to take it. You have it, take it. You don't have to feel like he is in control - you are in control of your life.

Good luck, you are already on your way.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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16-10-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
So I've been thinking more on the things I want, as Dark Light suggested.

I know one thing I for sure want and that's freedom. I've always had to answer to someone - parents, God, and then husband - and I really want to just have to answer to myself now. I don't want to have to "check in" with anyone and it's kind of par for the course that when you're married, you have someone else to think of. I'd love to be able to just... do what I want, when I want, how I want - you know? I want what I didn't get - the chance to be on my own and make my own decisions and experience things.

I kind of want to be single pringle, lol ( <---- Okay, so that's retarded, but I heard it on TV and I wanted to say it, so nyah Tongue Laugh out load )

And fuck me, that reminds me I still haven't seen Singles (a movie in which my beloved Chris Cornell makes a cameo) yet!!! Must remedy this situation promptly.

Anyway, another part of the reason that divorce has a certain appeal is that honestly I do feel like I could do better. That feels shitty to say, but I really do think I could do better. Like I said, I was never noticed by any of the guys at my school so I figured I'd better take what I could get. I fell in love with him, yes, because he made me feel special, gave me the kind of attention I'd always wanted, but still. I think I could do better. Could have someone just... maybe someone a little more like me, more suited to me. A guy who'd understand that I need my space and alone time and that it isn't about me being a bitch or cold or whatever. I just... need my space that's all.

And I want a man I can admire. Someone smart and driven who has an adventurous spirit (both in and out of the bedroom) and who wants to expose me to new things and ideas. And yes, archaic as it is, I do like for the man to take the lead on that stuff (okay, at least just the bedroom stuff - I aim to please! Big Grin so I like to be given suggestions on how I can do that; I don't want a dude sassing me around or being a daddy to me). And I just don't know that that man will ever be my husband. And there's all the built-up hurt there, too.

Anyway, I'm just rambling again. Trying to sort things out. Thanks for the ear. Big Grin

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19-10-2013, 11:08 AM
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
I think the decision has been made, you are just processing it, which is good. Do things that make you feel more free and some of the pressure will let off, which will help with your processing. Cheers!

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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21-10-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Does anyone else struggle with this?
(19-10-2013 11:08 AM)Skippy538 Wrote:  I think the decision has been made, you are just processing it, which is good. Do things that make you feel more free and some of the pressure will let off, which will help with your processing. Cheers!

Yeah. It's like my heart/instincts made its decision already and my mind/logic is just waiting to catch up.

I really thought a lot about everything over the weekend and had a rough-draft reply all ready to go and then it got wiped.

So that sucks, but the basic gist was that I'd sat down and thought through everything and how things had progressed and realized that it's over for me. But it isn't for him - he still loves me, says he loves me the same way he did when we first met - and that's heartbreaking.

It's difficult to hear someone crying in the bed next to you, knowing you're the reason for it. It's difficult to hear someone tell you they are sorry, over and over again, and feel like they genuinely mean it, only for it to have no effect on your heart whatsoever. It's difficult to see someone do all of the things you wanted them to do and for it to ring hollow because you're sure they're only doing it because you said it was over.

So when I see that genuine remorse and see him working on the things I had problems with / complaints about, I feel obligated to have it mean something to me, to fix things, to make a difference to my heart.

And when it doesn't, I'm disappointed in myself. I feel like a bad person. I'd rather him hate me, or tell me I'm a selfish bitch and to just leave already if I don't want him anymore than to see him try and try and it not be enough because I know all too well what that feels like - to try so hard to make a person happy and it not be good enough - and I can't stand making someone else hurt in that way. Yes, he hurt me deeply, but still.

I feel sort of like that one character out of Vonnegut's Sirens of Titan (if I'm remembering the title correctly) who he finally finds a place where he can be happy and can't hurt anyone. I just wish there was somewhere like that for me.

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