Does atheism oppose the world religions?
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12-01-2018, 09:07 PM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(02-01-2018 02:48 AM)thermodynamics Wrote:  Is it necessary to debate between atheism and a religion?

Bucky, I'm surprised you haven't dropped this nugget on him already. Wink

"Ignosticism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the term "god" has no unambiguous definition. Ignosticism requires a good, non-controversial definition of god before arguing on its existence."
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12-01-2018, 09:40 PM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(12-01-2018 08:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  But theists pulling this kind of stunt are trying to have their cake and eat it. They want...

I suppose some do and some don't. You're attributing motives to a lot of people.

They may have motives they decided in advance, or they may have been persuaded by the Platonic arguments.

(12-01-2018 08:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  God to be a concept so it can hide from scrutiny and even from reality; yet they want it to be an intelligent agent.

Again, you're telling me the motives of huge numbers of people over a very long period of time.

(12-01-2018 08:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Concepts don't have agency. Concepts don't do anything at all. So they want it to act as if it isn't a concept, but is something real in the physical world. Special pleading, I guess you'd call it.

Or they hold to the doctrine of divine impassibility, which says that God doesn't take action in the way that any physical thing takes action. A Final Cause, in Aristotle's sense, causes but doesn't act.

Nor does any theologian posit that God is something real in the physical world.

It qualifies as special pleading if they start with the conclusion and build up justifications. But it doesn't always work that way.
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12-01-2018, 11:20 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2018 12:27 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(12-01-2018 09:40 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  Nor does any theologian posit that God is something real in the physical world.

Billions of Catholics, and their theologians believe firmly, that Jesus, "body, blood, soul and divinity" exists (after transubstantiation) in the physical world, and that Jesus, (part of the trinity) came to Earth.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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12-01-2018, 11:22 PM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(12-01-2018 09:40 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(12-01-2018 08:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  But theists pulling this kind of stunt are trying to have their cake and eat it. They want...

I suppose some do and some don't. You're attributing motives to a lot of people.

They may have motives they decided in advance, or they may have been persuaded by the Platonic arguments.

(12-01-2018 08:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  God to be a concept so it can hide from scrutiny and even from reality; yet they want it to be an intelligent agent.

Again, you're telling me the motives of huge numbers of people over a very long period of time.

No, he's not. He is talking about a specific subset of theists; the ones who are "pulling this kind of stunt".

Quote:
(12-01-2018 08:51 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Concepts don't have agency. Concepts don't do anything at all. So they want it to act as if it isn't a concept, but is something real in the physical world. Special pleading, I guess you'd call it.

Or they hold to the doctrine of divine impassibility, which says that God doesn't take action in the way that any physical thing takes action. A Final Cause, in Aristotle's sense, causes but doesn't act.

And that is utter nonsense. How about theists get past the nonsensical Aristotelian
'causes' and learn some physics. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Nor does any theologian posit that God is something real in the physical world.

Good, that appears to be the only sensible thing I've ever read about theologians.

Quote:It qualifies as special pleading if they start with the conclusion and build up justifications. But it doesn't always work that way.

That's not what special pleading is. No

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-01-2018, 11:27 PM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tool...Consequent

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12-01-2018, 11:30 PM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
Quote:Nor does any theologian posit that God is something real in the physical world.

Yes they do.
"In western theism, omnipresence is roughly described as the ability to be "present everywhere at the same time", referring to an unbounded or universal presence."

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13-01-2018, 12:06 AM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(12-01-2018 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, he's not. He is talking about a specific subset of theists; the ones who are "pulling this kind of stunt".

I wrote: "And one of the main traditions of theology, since Plato, says that God exists in the same way as numbers -- non-materially, as Idea."

To which he replied: "God is indeed an idea, an abstract concept. But theists pulling this kind of stunt are trying to have their cake and eat it."

The Platonic tradition is not a stunt. It is not a trick Christians pull in order to save their prior beliefs. It predates Christianity and underlies the standard versions of theology.

(12-01-2018 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  And that is utter nonsense. How about theists get past the nonsensical Aristotelian
'causes' and learn some physics.

The concept of the four causes in no way interferes with physics. Nor is it utter nonsense. But it is necessary to understand it in order to understand theology. God is not efficient cause, but final cause. That isn't a stunt -- it's a fundamental definition of what God is.

(12-01-2018 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's not what special pleading is.

Right. Special pleading is a logical fallacy. The other guy was telling me what the secret motives of Platonists were, and that they choose to do special pleading as some kind of stunt in order to prove something false. I do not know the motives of everyone who ever lived, but there are people who have been persuaded by the Platonic arguments without relying on special pleading.
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13-01-2018, 12:09 AM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(13-01-2018 12:06 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  The Platonic tradition is not a stunt. It is not a trick Christians pull in order to save their prior beliefs. It predates Christianity and underlies the standard versions of theology.

It's now seen as bullshit. Dualism went out the window centuries ago.
It's "not even" a trick.

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13-01-2018, 12:13 AM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(12-01-2018 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-01-2018 09:40 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  I suppose some do and some don't. You're attributing motives to a lot of people.

They may have motives they decided in advance, or they may have been persuaded by the Platonic arguments.


Again, you're telling me the motives of huge numbers of people over a very long period of time.

No, he's not. He is talking about a specific subset of theists; the ones who are "pulling this kind of stunt".

Quote:Or they hold to the doctrine of divine impassibility, which says that God doesn't take action in the way that any physical thing takes action. A Final Cause, in Aristotle's sense, causes but doesn't act.

And that is utter nonsense. How about theists get past the nonsensical Aristotelian
'causes' and learn some physics. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Nor does any theologian posit that God is something real in the physical world.

Good, that appears to be the only sensible thing I've ever read about theologians.

Quote:It qualifies as special pleading if they start with the conclusion and build up justifications. But it doesn't always work that way.

That's not what special pleading is. No

If you'd like to make an argument about why the concept of the four causes is foolish I'd be interested to read it. Or if you provide a link.

I'm looking for a real analysis, though -- not just insults.
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13-01-2018, 12:18 AM
RE: Does atheism oppose the world religions?
(13-01-2018 12:13 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(12-01-2018 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, he's not. He is talking about a specific subset of theists; the ones who are "pulling this kind of stunt".


And that is utter nonsense. How about theists get past the nonsensical Aristotelian
'causes' and learn some physics. Drinking Beverage


Good, that appears to be the only sensible thing I've ever read about theologians.


That's not what special pleading is. No

If you'd like to make an argument about why the concept of the four causes is foolish I'd be interested to read it. Or if you provide a link.

I'm looking for a real analysis, though -- not just insults.

They bear no relation to reality, hence the suggestion to learn some physics. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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