Does context matter?
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09-03-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Does context matter?
Context often matters only if we agree, ever notice that?
But yea, it matters. Tone matters too in how things can be perceived.
On a forum like this, it's easy to offend even though you could be joking with someone. Without hearing the tone of voice of someone, hard to pick up sarcasm over words on a screen. The identical comment said in person might not offend as it might offend over texting, for example.

Context and tone matter. Yep.

The beauty of the heart, is the lasting beauty. - Rumi Heart
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09-03-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Does context matter?
Hughsie,now i keep wondering why you want to stay a fat brit and not become a fat 'murican

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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09-03-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: Does context matter?
(09-03-2014 07:19 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  Hughsie,now i keep wondering why you want to stay a fat brit and not become a fat 'murican

I may not be able to shout 'nigger' or 'yid' in public but I get free healthcare, I'm pretty happy with that trade off. Big Grin

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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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09-03-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: Does context matter?
(09-03-2014 07:40 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 07:19 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  Hughsie,now i keep wondering why you want to stay a fat brit and not become a fat 'murican

I may not be able to shout 'nigger' or 'yid' in public but I get free healthcare, I'm pretty happy with that trade off. Big Grin

Canada, best of both worlds. Plus Stark'll get ya high.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-03-2014, 08:15 PM
RE: Does context matter?
What rev said

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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10-03-2014, 06:01 AM
RE: Does context matter?
(09-03-2014 06:33 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Anything deemed 'hate speech' is punishable by law in England.

Further to this discussion what does anyone think about either of these examples, both from the world of football.

Example 1 - WBA striker Nicolas Anelka was charged by the FA for using an anti-Semitic gesture. He made a quenelle while celebrating a goal. The quenelle was devised by a French comedian and friend of Anelka. While the comedian and Anelka claim it to be an anti-establishment gesture many others claim it to be anti-Semitic and the comedian in question has several convictions for anti-Semitism. After the disciplinary process Anelka was banned for five games. Weirdly enough the panel that banned him accepted that he was neither an anti-Semite, nor had used the gesture intending it symbolise anti-Semitism. They accepted he had made it with the intent of making an anti-establishment gesture but have still banned him as they say it is too closely linked with anti-Semitism for it to be acceptable for him to use it at all.

Example 2 - Tottenham is a club that has close links to London's Jewish community. As such some sections of fans have taken to calling themselves 'yids' (also used as a derogatory term for Jews). Both the FA and police have said that any Tottenham fans using the phrase, even to refer to themselves, may face prosecution as it is deemed to be hate speech. Earlier this season three Tottenham fans were arrested and charged for chanting about themselves being yids. Their charges were recently dropped.

What does anyone think about these two scenarios?

I'm not sure about these cases, the second one at least seems pretty harmless. However, after someone is accused of being racist, they resort to excuses. Especially if their career is at stake.

The last couple of years, we've had an athlete disqualified from participating in the Olympic Games after a racist comment on Twitter, and a football player forbidden to play in the national team ever for making a Nazi gesture after a goal he scored.

It's not exactly illegal, but there were repercussions anyway. Both of them claimed they weren't racist and they meant no harm. It was clear however that they either meant to do it, or that they were extremely stupid.

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10-03-2014, 06:19 AM
RE: Does context matter?
(09-03-2014 07:40 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I may not be able to shout 'nigger' or 'yid' in public but I get free healthcare, I'm pretty happy with that trade off. Big Grin

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10-03-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: Does context matter?
Of course context and intent matter.

But these days every little percieved slight is taken as an offensive intollerable remark/action.

Not being offended is not a right, and no one should be immune.

What it comes down to is, quit feeling so butt hurt over everything and grow up.

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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10-03-2014, 07:14 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 07:17 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Does context matter?
(09-03-2014 06:56 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I don't like them, I think that if something doesn't explicitly encourages people to commit a crime it shouldn't be illegal. I don't give a flying fuck about some group feelings being hurt for some discriminatory gesture, nobody should have their feelings protected by law.

Now, if the gesture was explicit, like "slicing" your throat with your finger, then that should be illegal. But even the nazi salute should be legal. There are social penalties that are enough, I'd like to see someone who made a nazi salute in public trying to get a job afterwards.

And all of that is context dependant. Every form of human communication is context dependant, and context must dictate how things are understood, when law brakes that wall it becomes dictatorial

"nobody should have their feelings protected by law". Agreed.

Which is inconsistent with your next sentence. No gesture should be illegal.

You didn't see me do it but I might have just made an anti-Nach gesture to you. But I deny it. Your word against mine in court.

Next step... criminalising hate-thoughts!

But nail-on-head: Social penalties / peer pressure / ostracising.

Traditionally, cultural change requires a combination of incentives and penalties, typically:
Economic
Moral
Social

Techniques used are:
Policy ... rules, laws, principles derived through shared values
Financial (the most effective) ... charging/pricing, fines, lost earnings, bonuses, taxes
Champions ... capitalising on human's sheep mentality.

The problem with the hate gesture / hate speech legislation is that the law-makers are imposing their morality on others.

Sure, government exists to protect minorities so when it comes to physical abuse, denying equal opportunity, I'm right with you but denying rights to freedom of expression is a dangerous game if the 'wrong' people get into power. History is littered with such examples.

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10-03-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Does context matter?
(10-03-2014 07:14 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 06:56 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I don't like them, I think that if something doesn't explicitly encourages people to commit a crime it shouldn't be illegal. I don't give a flying fuck about some group feelings being hurt for some discriminatory gesture, nobody should have their feelings protected by law.

Now, if the gesture was explicit, like "slicing" your throat with your finger, then that should be illegal. But even the nazi salute should be legal. There are social penalties that are enough, I'd like to see someone who made a nazi salute in public trying to get a job afterwards.

And all of that is context dependant. Every form of human communication is context dependant, and context must dictate how things are understood, when law brakes that wall it becomes dictatorial

"nobody should have their feelings protected by law". Agreed.

Which is inconsistent with your next sentence. No gesture should be illegal.

You didn't see me do it but I might have just made an anti-Nach gesture to you. But I deny it. Your word against mine in court.

Next step... criminalising hate-thoughts!

But nail-on-head: Social penalties / peer pressure / ostracising.

Traditionally, cultural change requires a combination of incentives and penalties, typically:
Economic
Moral
Social

Techniques used are:
Policy ... rules, laws, principles derived through shared values
Financial (the most effective) ... charging/pricing, fines, lost earnings, bonuses, taxes
Champions ... capitalising on human's sheep mentality.

The problem with the hate gesture / hate speech legislation is that the law-makers are imposing their morality on others.

Sure, government exists to protect minorities so when it comes to physical abuse, denying equal opportunity, I'm right with you but denying rights to freedom of expression is a dangerous game if the 'wrong' people get into power. History is littered with such examples.

I meant gestures made in public, as in provoking people to commit a crime. In private any gesture is legal, you may even plot to kill me in private and it would be fine if you just keep it a plan.
But if you encourage people to kill me or threaten me in public, with words or any other means, then we have a problem.

Completely agree with the rest Smile

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