Does faith imply doubt?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-08-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Yes, Faith presupposes doubt.

Not much else to say.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Doubt is great.

That's a smart thing to say - but I'm doubtful about that.

In my line of work we try to avoid being doubtful because when you give people the wrong medicine patients die.
Likewise I am responsible for an aseptic chemotherapy & Parental nutrition unit - if we are "doubtful" if it has been micro-biologically contaminated patients die.
So doubt is not always smart.

However if it want for doubt we would have never developed any medicine, science or technology and not be blogging right now. So God Bless Doubt.

If we didn't doubt God He would think we are idiots if He existed.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Anyway I prefer the word "hope" to "faith"
Eg sometimes in situations of doubt we "hope" what we do turns out well eg in medicine there are often probabilities of success which can be low, using the term faith just doesn't fit.
Eg if someone has APML Leukemia and we give chemotherapy there is a 80-90% chance of remission and potentially complete cure - however I would never tell a patient "I have faith the treatment will work" rather "we hope treatment will work, your chances for cure are good" etc...
Yes it implies doubt in both cases because I cannot be sure the treatment will work.

Given some future time with complete genetic & molecular analysis knowledge would grow and we could say - based on XYZ genetics, environmental risks, biological type etc treatment is 99% likely to work - it will boil down to statistical analysis and some poor sod might be the 1% failure.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2014, 01:05 AM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(02-08-2014 05:00 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  However; if science becomes too grandiose in terms of human needs sociologically, things could turn very nasty.

Why?

(02-08-2014 05:00 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Some subjective pondering is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of how science may be employed.

Faith is not "subjective pondering". Granted, it's subjective, but it's not "pondering". It's certainty on a matter you have nothing to go on. If all scientists everywhere woke up one day and said:
"Well, we were wrong. The Moon really is made of cheese."
"Really? But what about the samples you retrieved from the Moon?"
"We believe they decayed on their trip here, and that said decay produced anti-cognitive radiation that erased the astronauts' short-term memories, making them incapable of realizing it."
"How does that happen? What's 'anti-cognitive radiation'?"
"*shrug* We just have faith that it happened like that."
Would you take this seriously, even if they truly believed, if it wasn't some kind of hoax, et cetera? I know I wouldn't.
Faith is egocentrism (nobody - not even the believer - can find evidence for it - whatever "it" is - yet the believer somehow managed to discover that it exists anyway) disguised as humility (faith is claimed to be a virtue by those who have it, as if being irrational in the extreme is anything to be proud of).

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes One Above All's post
03-08-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(03-08-2014 01:05 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 05:00 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  However; if science becomes too grandiose in terms of human needs sociologically, things could turn very nasty.

Why?

(02-08-2014 05:00 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Some subjective pondering is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of how science may be employed.

Faith is not "subjective pondering". Granted, it's subjective, but it's not "pondering". It's certainty on a matter you have nothing to go on. If all scientists everywhere woke up one day and said:
"Well, we were wrong. The Moon really is made of cheese."
"Really? But what about the samples you retrieved from the Moon?"
"We believe they decayed on their trip here, and that said decay produced anti-cognitive radiation that erased the astronauts' short-term memories, making them incapable of realizing it."
"How does that happen? What's 'anti-cognitive radiation'?"
"*shrug* We just have faith that it happened like that."
Would you take this seriously, even if they truly believed, if it wasn't some kind of hoax, et cetera? I know I wouldn't.
Faith is egocentrism (nobody - not even the believer - can find evidence for it - whatever "it" is - yet the believer somehow managed to discover that it exists anyway) disguised as humility (faith is claimed to be a virtue by those who have it, as if being irrational in the extreme is anything to be proud of).

First I don't see faith as certainty. True a good many religious people look at it that way. In my opinion this contradicts faith. Faith, to me, is more a hopeful contemplative way of looking at things that just might transcend the scientific method.

As for science, by virtue of observation, testing, being falsifiable, peer review criteria etc it is the best method in obtaining varying measures of high probability, in regards to how the issue in hand will become manifest. There is also the issue of fudging results and falsifying results to suit vested interests. Quantum mechanics too has altered the ball game.

In having an openness towards the non proven speculative scenario I am not pushing any religion or psychic psychosis. Rather; I would like to feel that contemplating such, with no interference to others, should not be seen as foolish, eccentric, or ill informed.

I choose not to be overwhelmed by evolutionary determinism, post Big Bang.
Einstein spoke of science having big muscles but little personality, and even Dawkins gives God a small degree of probability, unlike a good many atheists. I am not talking about any specific God, simply the rough principle.
If over 15.7 billion years we have aimlessly evolved (assisted by memes) so be it!
As for me, I prefer to look to synthesis rather than certainty and choose to not be totally shackled by scientism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2014, 05:27 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(03-08-2014 04:18 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Faith, to me, is more a hopeful contemplative way of looking at things that just might transcend the scientific method.

If it can't be verified by the scientific method, regardless of the devices used (that means past, present, and future devices), then it does not exist. This is due to the way the scientific method works.

(03-08-2014 04:18 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  In having an openness towards the non proven speculative scenario I am not pushing any religion or psychic psychosis. Rather; I would like to feel that contemplating such, with no interference to others, should not be seen as foolish, eccentric, or ill informed.

Contemplating that for which there is no evidence available to anyone (including the believer) as something that might just exist? Either insanity or egocentrism.

(03-08-2014 04:18 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I choose not to be overwhelmed by evolutionary determinism, post Big Bang.
Einstein spoke of science having big muscles but little personality, and even Dawkins gives God a small degree of probability, unlike a good many atheists. I am not talking about any specific God, simply the rough principle.

Tell me, why would I care what Einstein or Dawkins say about the existence of deities? Are they psychics? Are they even remotely related to religion except by not being related to it? Does their opinion somehow invalidate the pure logic involved in disproving my definition of "god", which is really the only one that matters to me in these situations? Hint: The answer to the first one is "I wouldn't", and the answer to the other ones is "No".
Also, "god", when not being used as a proper noun, is not capitalized. The fact that you capitalized it means that you are referring to a specific god, even if you do not intend to be doing so.

(03-08-2014 04:18 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  If over 15.7 billion years we have aimlessly evolved (assisted by memes) so be it!
As for me, I prefer to look to synthesis rather than certainty and choose to not be totally shackled by scientism.

Define "scientism".

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-08-2014, 02:01 AM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Your tone is quite confrontationalist, along with a touch of grammar fascism.
Quite obviously you don't understand where I am coming from.............
I don't need scientific proofs to explore the mysterious as my interests may freely choose purely subjective areas of abstract thought.......
Considerations, intuitions, contemplations: even fantasies if you like exist in a sense, and science does not totally control such other avenues.
I make no claims re scientific proofs for such and some areas remain real irrespective of this~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Smartass
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-08-2014, 07:32 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
“True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture; it is also a wholehearted trust, which the Holy Spirit creates in me by the gospel, that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also, forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation. These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.” -Heidelberg Catechism Q21

Faith is not believing in something when there is no evidence for it, rather it is all the evidence one needs to believe. Faith is a deep-rooted conviction which is created in the believer by the Holy Spirit. Based on this definition, there is no reason why faith cannot be a properly basic belief, as are the laws of logic, belief in an external world, or the belief that the world is more than 5 minutes old.

“If it can't be verified by the scientific method, regardless of the devices used (that means past, present, and future devices), then it does not exist.”
Which scientific experiment did you do to show this?

“I must add... my gratitude to you for the attention with which you have listened to me, for, from my numerous observations, our Liberals are never capable of letting anyone else have a conviction of his own without at once meeting their opponent with abuse or even something worse.”
-Dostoevsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2014, 01:00 AM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(04-08-2014 07:32 PM)i_am_naught Wrote:  “True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture; it is also a wholehearted trust, which the Holy Spirit creates in me by the gospel, that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also, forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation. These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.” -Heidelberg Catechism Q21

Faith is not believing in something when there is no evidence for it, rather it is all the evidence one needs to believe. Faith is a deep-rooted conviction which is created in the believer by the Holy Spirit. Based on this definition, there is no reason why faith cannot be a properly basic belief, as are the laws of logic, belief in an external world, or the belief that the world is more than 5 minutes old.

“If it can't be verified by the scientific method, regardless of the devices used (that means past, present, and future devices), then it does not exist.”
Which scientific experiment did you do to show this?

Welcome to the forum!
While I don't hold your Christian passion, for a good many reasons,I am still able to empathise with your position.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-08-2014, 04:09 AM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(04-08-2014 02:01 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Your tone is quite confrontationalist

I can't even find a definition for that word. In fact, my spell checker doesn't recognize it. Define it for me. If it means what I think it does, it's a moot point.

(04-08-2014 02:01 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  along with a touch of grammar fascism.

Nope. Just telling you that, if you don't want to imply that you're referring to a specific god, don't capitalize the word unless you are actually referring to either the god of Christianity (nicknamed "God" by his followers) or the god of Islam (named "Allah", which literally translates to "God").

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: