Does faith imply doubt?
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05-08-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Faith I find to be at the crux of a divide over theistic belief.

Kestrel ( where did he go Sadcryface ) was a prime example of a faith-embracer; he whole-heartedly understood that the faith that guided his beliefs was not grounded in rational thought and he stuck to it anyway. Faith is inherently a matter of trusting one's instincts and putting in all one's chips without any reasonable indicator that such an action is worth the effort. Hence, it is an intrapersonal matter and not something that can dictate interpersonal interactions, which means that proselytizing and construction of proofs are futile endeavors.

This brings me to the point of the typical theistic apologist that we are used to, who distort the meaning of faith by attempting to construct arguments that prove god's existence. Faith and reason don't mix, they are occupying opposite poles of a spectrum. Hence if one attempts to utilize logic to prove god's existence, faith is NOT an option to fall back on. It's either one way or the other. However, since a god is by default a being who's existence is not objectively demonstrably but instead reliant on subjective belief, it's not possible to construct a solid logical argument proving its existence, which is why all theistic arguments are presuppositional messes. In addition, since they wouldn't have relied upon their instincts of faith to ground their beliefs, they aren't relying on faith either.

Therefore, the typical theistic apologist is a subversion to both faith and logic, providing a disservice to both.

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05-08-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(04-08-2014 07:32 PM)i_am_naught Wrote:  “True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture; it is also a wholehearted trust, which the Holy Spirit creates in me by the gospel, that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also, forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation. These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.” -Heidelberg Catechism Q21

Faith is not believing in something when there is no evidence for it, rather it is all the evidence one needs to believe. Faith is a deep-rooted conviction which is created in the believer by the Holy Spirit. Based on this definition, there is no reason why faith cannot be a properly basic belief, as are the laws of logic, belief in an external world, or the belief that the world is more than 5 minutes old.

“If it can't be verified by the scientific method, regardless of the devices used (that means past, present, and future devices), then it does not exist.”
Which scientific experiment did you do to show this?

You fail to notice that your argument is circular and presuppositional: faith is created by the Holy Spirit?

Faith provides no knowledge. Only evidence does that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-08-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Suppose you and I were arguing over whether or not I had eggs for breakfast. I believe that I had eggs because I have a memory of it, that is my main reason for holding that belief. However, you are skeptical and do not believe me, so I try to make an argument to show that I did, in fact, have eggs. I show that the pan is dirty, that there are eggs missing, and that it is my usual routine to have eggs in the morning.

After arguing, I realize that my arguments, while not conclusive, do provide more reason to believe that I had eggs than I had on memory alone. I now have dual warrant for my belief. I mainly believe on the basis of my memory, and will continue to believe even if my arguments fail. You, on the other hand, do not find my arguments convincing and still doubt my memory, so you continue not believing that I had eggs. We are both rational in our conclusions, and faith is analogous to memory in this scenario.

Quote:Faith provides no knowledge. Only evidence does that.
What evidence do you have for that?

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05-08-2014, 03:56 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 04:01 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(05-08-2014 03:41 PM)i_am_naught Wrote:  Suppose you and I were arguing over whether or not I had eggs for breakfast. I believe that I had eggs because I have a memory of it, that is my main reason for holding that belief. However, you are skeptical and do not believe me, so I try to make an argument to show that I did, in fact, have eggs. I show that the pan is dirty, that there are eggs missing, and that it is my usual routine to have eggs in the morning.

After arguing, I realize that my arguments, while not conclusive, do provide more reason to believe that I had eggs than I had on memory alone. I now have dual warrant for my belief. I mainly believe on the basis of my memory, and will continue to believe even if my arguments fail. You, on the other hand, do not find my arguments convincing and still doubt my memory, so you continue not believing that I had eggs. We are both rational in our conclusions, and faith is analogous to memory in this scenario.

Quote:Faith provides no knowledge. Only evidence does that.
What evidence do you have for that?

No.

Memory is actually not as reliable as you are making it out to be, for starters. It's been well demonstrated that we are hardwired to modify our memories over time.
Secondly, the evidence you were providing that you had eggs was EMPIRICAL. That would be the evidence that convinced me, not your memory, your analogy for faith.

Hence we are back to square one, provide empirical evidence. Or don't, I don't really give a shit what you believe so long as you aren't a proselytizer. To each his/her own. However, if you were a proselytizer, the only way to successful convert me would be convincing empirical evidence.

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05-08-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(05-08-2014 03:41 PM)i_am_naught Wrote:  
Quote:Faith provides no knowledge. Only evidence does that.
What evidence do you have for that?

All of science. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-08-2014, 05:04 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(25-06-2014 02:50 PM)Lunda Wrote:  I have this notion that faith means believing without proof. Well so does belief, but you get my point.

If you do have proof (a dirty word, but let's disregard that for the moment) of (insert religion here) are real, you have knowledge in stead of faith.

Faith - the belief in something without evidence.

Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. A belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Religion - The embracement of delusion.

Drooling

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-08-2014, 05:25 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(25-06-2014 02:50 PM)Lunda Wrote:  I have this notion that faith means believing without proof. Well so does belief, but you get my point.

If you do have proof (a dirty word, but let's disregard that for the moment) of (insert religion here) are real, you have knowledge in stead of faith.

Well there's SETI of course, a belief about reality with no evidence. This is also based on the fact that there are so many stars that there must be some habitable planets out there. The only evidence offered (or maybe even possible) is statistical. Life elsewhere is considered probable even though there are no numbers available to compute; probability is impossible to determine.

All this is an example of secular "faith", the belief in "things" without evidence and certainly beyond proof.

Edna

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Center of Advanced Scrutiny
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05-08-2014, 05:47 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
(05-08-2014 05:25 PM)ednafeldspar Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 02:50 PM)Lunda Wrote:  I have this notion that faith means believing without proof. Well so does belief, but you get my point.

If you do have proof (a dirty word, but let's disregard that for the moment) of (insert religion here) are real, you have knowledge in stead of faith.

Well there's SETI of course, a belief about reality with no evidence. This is also based on the fact that there are so many stars that there must be some habitable planets out there. The only evidence offered (or maybe even possible) is statistical. Life elsewhere is considered probable even though there are no numbers available to compute; probability is impossible to determine.

All this is an example of secular "faith", the belief in "things" without evidence and certainly beyond proof.

Edna

Baloney. Drinking Beverage

It is neither belief nor faith. They are statements about what is possible or likely. They are statements of estimated probability.

And of course there is evidence. There is life here on this planet and there are many planets elsewhere.

SETI is the question, not the answer. Again, no belief, no faith.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-08-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Yes
Faith is not faith if you know with certainty.

If you are uncertain of something, there is doubt.
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10-08-2014, 04:24 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2014 04:31 AM by Baruch.)
RE: Does faith imply doubt?
Quote:'i_am_naught' wrote:
Suppose you and I were arguing over whether or not I had eggs for breakfast. I believe that I had eggs because I have a memory of it, that is my main reason for holding that belief. However, you are skeptical and do not believe me, so I try to make an argument to show that I did, in fact, have eggs. I show that the pan is dirty, that there are eggs missing, and that it is my usual routine to have eggs in the morning.

After arguing, I realize that my arguments, while not conclusive, do provide more reason to believe that I had eggs than I had on memory alone. I now have dual warrant for my belief. I mainly believe on the basis of my memory, and will continue to believe even if my arguments fail. You, on the other hand, do not find my arguments convincing and still doubt my memory, so you continue not believing that I had eggs. We are both rational in our conclusions, and faith is analogous to memory in this scenario.
'
i_am_naught's analogy for faith to memory is appalling.
Clearly you do not understand skepticism & basic philosophical reasoning.

Firstly: There is little reason to be skeptical of you having eggs in the morning all things being equal - ceteris paribus for this scenario, especially if we know you like eggs in the morning. UNLESS other factors will lead to skepticism such as I have your medical records which show you have life threatening Egg allergy which is untreated. (again - I would be skeptical you had eggs - but it does not disprove you had eggs should you tell me your testing a new drug for the allergy as an example)
Likewise if we had a video & hotel staff claim you were in a hotel with steak for breakfast & not at home for eggs we would be skeptical of your claim.

Secondly: Your circumstantial evidence for having eggs does not automatically lead to skepticism but is quite reasonable if not contradicted by the first point above. I can reasonably logically infer you had eggs, no reason to doubt your memory.

Thirdly: As others mentioned without the circumstantial evidence I can still trust your memory claim if I know your generally honest, not taking any mind altering drugs, have mental disorders or motive to deceive me.

fourthly: Memory can be unreliable under certain circumstances.

...but most importantly - making eggs is a routine empirically verifiable event with little reason for skepticism.
It is quite different if you claim God revealed Himself as Jesus who died for your sins and was resurrected by unreliable claims made some 2000 years ago !!!!
This story is not analogous to evidence from memory to making eggs in the morning !
One reason is the evidence for the Jesus story is appalling & lacking but more importantly in this context: there is contradictory evidence not supporting the resurrection.

In addition - the faith claim's based on subjective feelings of conviction are much less reliable for numerous reasons compared to memory of making eggs - which routing empirically verifiable event.

To continue your analogy - how far would you trust your memory if evidence showed some contradictions ?
You claim to have had eggs for breakfast and that's your memory - but security guards in your prison say you had only bacon and no eggs were available due to shortage. There is also medical evidence you lacked sleep, were taking drugs, longed for eggs and was asking the kitchen cooks for them......when does the faithful memory conviction get revised, updated or altered as new evidence comes to light ?

I also had "faith convictions" in scriptures - but like the above example I had to change the convictions due to counter evidence - in my case it started with awareness the Noah story was fiction due to vast counter evidence regardless of my wishes & fantasies for it to be true. The Jesus story is also ridiculous on numerous levels philosophically regardless if there was even weak evidence.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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