Does "fate" exist?
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27-04-2017, 09:53 PM
Does "fate" exist?
Fate, not in a sense of some "gods plan" or the cosmos direction our actions and eventual destiny, but fate as in every possible action that will ever happen in the universe happens because it was going to happen that way anyway?

So basically, my writing this was going to be fate, because since no outside agency that has knowledge of the future altered it, and thus the processes of how the universe works, how quantum physics works and the fact that free will probably doesn't even exist since free will must be guided by the laws of physics, and thus forces beyond our own control would all create a chain of events from the exact moment of the big bang on up to the moment of events that were fated to happen, leading to me writing this and beyond.

I know this might seem like a really hard and complex thing to think, and I might not be explaining it correctly, but think of it like this.

Big bang was fate because X nature that has always existed or X reasons happened in the first place. If fate didn't eixst, they would not had happened but if that was the case, it would be fate that it would not have happened since it didn't happen.

Dinosaurs being extinct was fate since the gravitational forces and creation of the asteroid that hit the earth of that time was going to happen anyway, unless some outside intelligence knowing what would happen ahead of time stopped it.

If you travel back in time and interact with absolutely nothing, everything in the universe would play out the same exact way no matter what, because the natural processes that make our existence possible was going to make it happen that way no matter what happened. So, under this thought process, would this be considered fate that every thought we ever have, every single action any individual atom or particle makes in the universe is fate, because it was going to happen that way no matter what?


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27-04-2017, 10:29 PM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
Quite possibly. I came to the idea of determinism on my own in my twenties, based on the fact that we're essentially just chemicals. Chemicals don't make "decisions". I was stunned to find out I hadn't in fact developed some remarkable new hypothesis.

Scientifically speaking, it appears that the only thing halting complete predictability is "quantum randomness". I don't know enough about it to discuss this in any detail. All I can say is that if it turns out to not be random after all, then things really would seem to be inevitable.

As it is, all our notions of making conscious choices are pretty much storytelling I think, with the subconscious running the show without needing our input. (Language is tricky here; I tend to refer to the conscious mind as the self and the subconscious as a different entity, although of course this isn't really the case. The self is a nebulous concept, along with ideas of free will, which are very hard to define in any rigorous way.)

This lead me to something I've named the "free will fallacy", which I've seen even very highly trained thinkers make:

If there is no free will, then we should (choose to) act in the following way...

The imperative contradicts the premise. If there is no free will, we will do what we were going to do anyway. There is no ought/should. It makes the mistake of assuming free will even while denying it.

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27-04-2017, 11:44 PM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
This is a cool-ass song my cousin made based on our discussions about determinism.




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28-04-2017, 06:09 AM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
(27-04-2017 09:53 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Fate, not in a sense of some "gods plan" or the cosmos direction our actions and eventual destiny, but fate as in every possible action that will ever happen in the universe happens because it was going to happen that way anyway?

No, I don't think fate exists except on a general level. We are all going to die and pay taxes for instance.

Even on a strictly mechanical level, quantum indeterminancy means exactly that, that some events are not strictly determined. Even the big bang may have been such an event by some theories. If so, that's a pretty big nondetermined event.

I also think contra-causal free will is quite correct. Material causes and symbolic causes should not be lumped together as if they mean the same thing.
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28-04-2017, 06:15 AM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
No.
Look up Heisenberg's "Uncertainty".
Pay attention in Physics class.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-04-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
Nope, next question.

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28-04-2017, 07:59 AM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
I don't believe in fate. I believe in time. Time (IMO) controls everything. I always equate something as simple as misplacing your car keys. If you misplace your keys then you are running a few seconds to a few mins later than you normally would have been. So... What if, you hop in your car and have a fatal wreck a few miles down the road that you wouldn't have been involved in had you not misplaced your keys. If you hadn't misplaced your keys you would have missed the wreck since you were ahead of what might have happened. I realize that is a simplistic answer but it is valid answer. Anything we do from the time we were a small child all the way through adulthood has consequences. Call it the "butterfly" effect if you like. I don't chalk that up to fate. Just timing.

I get to decide what my life looks like, not the other way around.
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28-04-2017, 08:15 AM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
No.

I think people use the concept of "fate" when things they want to happen to them happens to them. ie: The girl said yes or they got that dream job etc..
Fate can then be more associated with a feeling rather than some mystical guiding force.
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28-04-2017, 08:23 AM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
No, that is a layperson's word, not a scientific formula.

In QM reality is neither only deterministic order vs only random chaos.

You can look at reality like this. We know the conditions that have the potential to lead to a category 5 hurricane, that part is predictable. What is harder to predict would be the exact number of raindrops from the start of the hurricane to the point where it breaks up. We also cannot predict the exact number of hurricanes per season, only estimate.

Particles behave a certain way and can be measured, but the possible outcomes are astronomical.

"Fate" is a bullshit laypersons term, it is not a scientific explanation for anything.

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28-04-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Does "fate" exist?
Nope. No such thing as "fate".

[In Greek mythology, the Moirai were three sister deities who together were the goddesses of fate. The Moirai are often referred to as "The Fates", and were historically viewed as incarnations of destiny and life.]

Today, fate is defined as the development of events outside of a person's control, and regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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