Does free will exist?
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10-05-2016, 11:57 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
(10-05-2016 03:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I would vote for a legal system where we have to prove that a person is a threat to public safety before locking them up or putting them down.

Likewise, except I would exclude "putting them down". If they are no longer a threat to you, and if you pay your fee for membership of society, I still don't see how you then think it's OK to advocate killing other members of society.

My example was, I the president can decide that you're a threat to other people's safety - who can gainsay me? If you say that a single person can't do that, I can easily organise a bloc of people to say the same. Now since you're a threat to safety *by fiat*, and since it's cheaper to kill you than imprison you, it's perfectly fine to kill you?

I'm not being ultra-clear but I'm trying to make the point that money should not be the factor that decides if a person lives or dies for some "justice" principle.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-05-2016, 03:11 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(10-05-2016 11:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  My example was, I the president can decide that you're a threat to other people's safety - who can gainsay me? If you say that a single person can't do that, I can easily organise a bloc of people to say the same. Now since you're a threat to safety *by fiat*, and since it's cheaper to kill you than imprison you, it's perfectly fine to kill you?

I'm not being ultra-clear but I'm trying to make the point that money should not be the factor that decides if a person lives or dies for some "justice" principle.
I don't accept "justice". I am not interested in playing god, in being a moral judge and punisher.

I am interested in removing threats. For example if we have a serial child rapist. Do we lock him up for a period and then let him out? Well, he is likely to rape again.
So do we lock him up forever or do we put him down?

If it costs the public $100,000 per year to keep him in jail vs a $10,000 one off execution. Then why not put him down, we are never going to let him out of prison anyways. With all the money saved we could put some of that towards Women's refuge or Victim support or something and also reduce taxes for all. It's win, win, win.

You seem worried about a corrupt government abusing power. If they have that kind of power then there seems to be nothing stopping them locking you up for the rest of your life. That's somewhat similar to death anyway.
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11-05-2016, 03:15 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(11-05-2016 03:11 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If it costs the public $100,000 per year to keep him in jail vs a $10,000 one off execution. Then why not put him down, we are never going to let him out of prison anyways. With all the money saved we could put some of that towards Women's refuge or Victim support or something and also reduce taxes for all. It's win, win, win.
What's interesting is that it often costs more to get a successful death penalty verdict than it does to house a prisoner for life. It sounds very non-intuitive, but that's what the statistics say.

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11-05-2016, 06:45 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(11-05-2016 03:15 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-05-2016 03:11 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If it costs the public $100,000 per year to keep him in jail vs a $10,000 one off execution. Then why not put him down, we are never going to let him out of prison anyways. With all the money saved we could put some of that towards Women's refuge or Victim support or something and also reduce taxes for all. It's win, win, win.
What's interesting is that it often costs more to get a successful death penalty verdict than it does to house a prisoner for life. It sounds very non-intuitive, but that's what the statistics say.

It has to be, because you have to jump through so many hoops and safeguards that are rightfully there to give the possibly innocent or wrongfully convicted every chance to be spared. You can free the imprisoned, you can make reparations to the wrongfully convicted. There is no recourse for death.

Even in light of this massive cost in time, effort, and energy, innocent people still die. Getting such a conviction is still far more costly than life imprisonment. The safeguards still aren't enough, and the costs (innocents killed and money spent) are already too high.

So either we can remove the safeguards, and fast-track execution, inevitably resulting in even more abuses and innocents killed. Or we can admit the system is fundamentally flawed because it's built and operated by flawed people, and thus removing state sanctioned executions is the only reasonable option.

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11-05-2016, 07:53 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(11-05-2016 03:11 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If it costs the public $100,000 per year to keep him in jail vs a $10,000 one off execution. Then why not put him down, we are never going to let him out of prison anyways. With all the money saved we could put some of that towards Women's refuge or Victim support or something and also reduce taxes for all. It's win, win, win.

Except you are not saving money.

#sigh
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11-05-2016, 09:34 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
It should be like this:

Offender gets to choose life in prison or death.
Gets one week to change mind, then action.

If in prison, only very basic care is provided for free.
Needs to work for TV, creature comforts like everyone else. Tokens are handed out instead of cash, items can be bought through prison store (which helps fund prison).

Life in prison means life in prison, unless innocence proven at a later date.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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11-05-2016, 09:34 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
(11-05-2016 07:53 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-05-2016 03:11 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If it costs the public $100,000 per year to keep him in jail vs a $10,000 one off execution. Then why not put him down, we are never going to let him out of prison anyways. With all the money saved we could put some of that towards Women's refuge or Victim support or something and also reduce taxes for all. It's win, win, win.

Except you are not saving money.

Straight from the ACLU.

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11-05-2016, 11:32 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
^^ If we *are* gonna discuss costs, what is the cost of keeping the bugger in prison for life after the trial?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-05-2016, 01:07 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(11-05-2016 11:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ If we *are* gonna discuss costs, what is the cost of keeping the bugger in prison for life after the trial?

Here's one example from that ACLU brief.

Each death penalty case in Texas costs taxpayers about $2.3 million. That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. ("Executions Cost Texas Millions," Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).

Three times a 40 year long trip to maximum security, meaning that given our current expected life spans, it's not even possible to come close to breaking even.

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12-05-2016, 01:41 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
Well but let's be serious about savings here. How about we don't pay for the accused to have a state-provided defense attorney (he's a murderer after all) and do away with appeals? What about not having a trial at all and just taking him out the back?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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