Does free will exist?
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12-05-2016, 01:54 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(06-05-2016 04:06 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Some people say that every one has free will. Others say that no one has free will. That is doesnt exist. What do you think?

Will free from what?
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12-05-2016, 02:00 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(12-05-2016 01:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Well but let's be serious about savings here. How about we don't pay for the accused to have a state-provided defense attorney (he's a murderer after all) and do away with appeals? What about not having a trial at all and just taking him out the back?






Interrogator: I am instructed to inform you that you have been convicted by special tribunal and that unless you are ready to offer your cooperation you are to be executed. Do you understand what I'm telling you?

Evey Hammond: Yes.

Interrogator: Are you ready to cooperate?

Evey Hammond: No.

Interrogator: Very well. Escort Ms. Hammond back to her cell. Arrange a detail of six men and take her out behind the chemical shed and shoot her.

Guard: It's time.

Evey Hammond: I'm ready.

Guard: Look all they want is one little piece of information, just give them something, anything.

Evey Hammond: Thank you, but I'd rather die behind the chemical sheds.

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12-05-2016, 03:39 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(11-05-2016 11:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ If we *are* gonna discuss costs, what is the cost of keeping the bugger in prison for life after the trial?
And if people are getting worried about killing an innocent person thus justifying a 3.5 million dollar trial

What about putting an innocent person in jail for a lifetime without parole. Surely they ought to have a 3.5 million dollar trial too.
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12-05-2016, 03:56 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(12-05-2016 03:39 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-05-2016 11:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ If we *are* gonna discuss costs, what is the cost of keeping the bugger in prison for life after the trial?
And if people are getting worried about killing an innocent person thus justifying a 3.5 million dollar trial

What about putting an innocent person in jail for a lifetime without parole. Surely they ought to have a 3.5 million dollar trial too.

Non-capitol cases don't cost as much, precisely because non-capitol cases don't have access to so many appeals, nor do they require the same amount of lawyers on either side. The increased cost of capitol trials not only stems from their increased length, but also the shear number of trials; such cases often go through multiple appeals. There are less hoops to jump through, precisely because people are not being executed. Now people with life in prison who do later get exonerated often do get reparations in the millions (depending on length of incarceration), but that's only if they are exonerated; all of those checks (and the associated court costs) need to be done up-front in a capitol case seeking the death penalty.

Plus if someone was put away for life, spent most of their life in a prison, millions of dollars is nothing in comparison to the life otherwise denied them. You spend 40 years in prison after being coerced into a confession at age 16, only to be finally found not guilty more than halfway through your life? I don't begrudge that guy coasting on the rest of his life with his reparations, that dude already paid for it.

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12-05-2016, 04:46 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(12-05-2016 03:39 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-05-2016 11:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ If we *are* gonna discuss costs, what is the cost of keeping the bugger in prison for life after the trial?
And if people are getting worried about killing an innocent person thus justifying a 3.5 million dollar trial

What about putting an innocent person in jail for a lifetime without parole. Surely they ought to have a 3.5 million dollar trial too.

Well if you're *not* worried about killing the innocent - I suppose it's still a good ol' stable society if you do execute a few innocent anyway - then I guess you don't mind being executed yourself? Smile

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-05-2016, 08:26 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
I think free will is a phrase which could be used in place of anarchy.

From Szuchow 05.06.2016
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth. Mikhail Bakunin.

As a consistent anarchist, and using the beginning of Bakunin’s quote, I like this better - The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, the second against the supreme tyranny of the state.
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12-05-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(12-05-2016 08:26 AM)Walter Wrote:  consistent anarchist, and using the beginning of Bakunin’s quote, I like this better - The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, the second against the supreme tyranny of the state.

The third against the supreme tyranny of logic. The fourth against the supreme tyranny of pigeons.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-05-2016, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2016 09:32 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Does free will exist?
(10-05-2016 06:52 AM)Banjo Wrote:  ...
Anyway, this has gone way off topic and is supposed to be about free will.

Can we please get back to St Augustine???

Actually, if free-will is interpreted in the context of 'moral competence', which in turn relates to risk/cost/benefit analysis and incentives and penalties, the ideas of deterrents and retribution (just deserts) are exactly on-topic.

Fuck Augustine. What did he know? He was born BC (Before Charles).

(10-05-2016 12:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
All that I care about is that I, and my loved ones are safe. If there is a danger, I want that danger removed. Next I am concerned about the cost (to myself) in removing that danger. If life imprisonment cost X and death penalty cost Y and X > Y then I want Y. Simple math.

I accept that might apply to your parochial calculations. But what are the cost factors that are taken into account?

The cost / value of a deterrent is hard to calculate (we can use something like a Pain Value Analysis).

So a society may decide that an overt costly punishment has a greater deterrent value.

The Peacock's Tail is the typical example of something that is excessively costly that's used to make a statement. More relevant are brightly coloured insects and fish which deter by announcing their real or pretend poisonousness. And also stotting.

(10-05-2016 12:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
I am not satan, it isn't my job to torture "moral" transgressors.
...

Out of curiosity, what do you do with "moral" transgressors within your social group?

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12-05-2016, 11:03 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
In the religious view I don't think there's free will. Omniscience goes against it, if god knows everything he surely know what actions we will take. He already knows who is going to be saved and who won't, that means that he allows people to born to be condemned. It doesn't matter what he tries, he already know if you will change your opinion or not. We're just following the script he made. Free will is just an illusion.

"Skepticism is the first step towards truth" -Denis Diderot
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13-05-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(12-05-2016 11:03 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  In the religious view I don't think there's free will.
...
Free will is just an illusion.

But an illusion worth keeping.

It's a sticky one for Islamic ethicists. If Allah has it all written down in his big book of done deals, then everything, including an atheist's disbelief, is predetermined. So... it doesn't matter how well or badly we behave (how many tribes we slaughter or slaves we take) because it was "meant to be" ... it is written!

They can only resort to ... because I said so!

The Jews seem to have addressed this by segregating god's law from man's law and the christians came up with free will.

So, don't knock it. If the monotheisms go back to determinism, we're fucked!

Dodgy

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