Does free will exist?
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07-05-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(06-05-2016 04:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes and no.
No in the short term, yes in the long term.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-Free-Will

I would say reverse this. We, in the short term can make decisions, but in the long term our decisions make decisions for us. Ergo cancelling out our free will.
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07-05-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
(07-05-2016 12:08 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(07-05-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Morality
-Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.


Right, so how do principles not exist? Sure, not everyone agrees on what is and is not moral, but as soon as you make any distinction between good and bad, what should be done or not be done, what you aught to do; you've implicitly created a morality by definition. Morality exists, even if only in principle or as a concept or human construct.

Sure. I agree.

Perhaps if morality is nothing more than subjective preference, then the word "morality" isn't the best descriptor?

I think that when most people claim that something is immoral (like slavery for example), they don't think they're stating their preference. I would guess that many people think it's a fact that slavery is immoral.

When we're kids, we are taught that morality is objective....that it's objectively wrong to be mean to other kids, that it's objectively right to be nice, etc...it's time we grow up.

Morality, in the way it is taught to us as kids, doesn't exist. There is no such thing as right and wrong.
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07-05-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
The nearly eternal Free Will debate never seems to get resolved because the entire concept is almost as poorly defined as "God" is. Everybody knows what it means until somebody asks you what it means and then it turns out that all the definitions are self-referencing.

A more profitable line of thought is how the very notion of free will takes god and pushes him down a flight of stairs.

On the one hand, if we don't have free will then the concepts of faith, choice, sin, punishment, reward, heaven and hell go straight out the window. Precious little point in telling us to have faith if we can't choose to have faith. Even less point in punishing us for not having it. That's what we were made to do after all. God's pretty much just sending wind-up toys to eternal torment because they did exactly what he made them to do. That sort of petty behaviour might be entirely consistent with the rest of god's character but it pretty much nixes the omnibenevlence and makes Christ's sacrifice pointless. Pointlesser. Pointleast?

On the other hand, if we do have free will then god can't be either omniscient or omnipotent. If god knows what we're going to do before hand then we don't really have a choice but to do it. If we did anything else then god would be wrong, throwing infallibility and omniscience out the window. By the same token, a god that is omnipotent but powerless to intervene in even our most trivial choices is pretty much the textbook definition of impotent.

Either way, theology comes off poorly when trying to deal with free will.

One of the more interesting questions is if we don't have the capacity for free will then why do we have the concept of it?

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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07-05-2016, 08:36 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
I have no choice but to answer yes!Tongue

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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07-05-2016, 08:41 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
(07-05-2016 09:05 AM)WadeW.Wilson Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 04:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes and no.
No in the short term, yes in the long term.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-Free-Will

I would say reverse this. We, in the short term can make decisions, but in the long term our decisions make decisions for us. Ergo cancelling out our free will.

It's no in the short term, because you have no real conscious control over your moment to moment decision making; any more so than you have conscious control over the individual beats of your heart.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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08-05-2016, 01:17 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(06-05-2016 04:06 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Some people say that every one has free will. Others say that no one has free will. That is doesnt exist. What do you think?

Does the colour red exist? What about life?

We can explain why things are red when their parts are not red.
We can explain why things are alive when their parts are not alive.

Can we explain why a human has freedom when its parts are trillions of not-free moist robots?

Dennett makes a stab at it here...
(and there's a lot to digest here so take it slowly Wink )



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08-05-2016, 10:23 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
Free will eh. Ask yourself, do you trust St Augustine???

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08-05-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
(07-05-2016 08:41 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-05-2016 09:05 AM)WadeW.Wilson Wrote:  I would say reverse this. We, in the short term can make decisions, but in the long term our decisions make decisions for us. Ergo cancelling out our free will.

It's no in the short term, because you have no real conscious control over your moment to moment decision making; any more so than you have conscious control over the individual beats of your heart.

I can see your point there.
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08-05-2016, 02:22 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
(08-05-2016 01:01 PM)WadeW.Wilson Wrote:  
(07-05-2016 08:41 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's no in the short term, because you have no real conscious control over your moment to moment decision making; any more so than you have conscious control over the individual beats of your heart.

I can see your point there.

Indeed. Neuroscience of free will.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-05-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Does free will exist?
(08-05-2016 02:22 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 01:01 PM)WadeW.Wilson Wrote:  I can see your point there.

Indeed. Neuroscience of free will.

So is it "no" in the long term as well, or just in the short term?
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