Does free will exist?
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09-05-2016, 01:24 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 01:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 01:12 AM)Banjo Wrote:  So, no sex that night. Wink

It was an argument worth having. People's lives are more important than our personal catharsis.

So, no. Big Grin

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09-05-2016, 01:47 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 01:24 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 01:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It was an argument worth having. People's lives are more important than our personal catharsis.

So, no. Big Grin

We never had sex 'at night', we both worked graveyard shift. Drinking Beverage

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09-05-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 01:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 01:24 AM)Banjo Wrote:  So, no. Big Grin

We never had sex 'at night', we both worked graveyard shift. Drinking Beverage

The Dali Lama, a virgin, says sex during the day is wrong.

Naughty kids. Wink

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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09-05-2016, 01:56 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 01:49 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 01:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  We never had sex 'at night', we both worked graveyard shift. Drinking Beverage

The Dali Lama, a virgin, says sex during the day is wrong.

Naughty kids. Wink

Why? Is he afraid of embarrassing the photons? Facepalm

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09-05-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 01:56 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 01:49 AM)Banjo Wrote:  The Dali Lama, a virgin, says sex during the day is wrong.

Naughty kids. Wink

Why? Is he afraid of embarrassing the photons? Facepalm

Maybe the Klingons? Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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09-05-2016, 03:32 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(06-05-2016 04:06 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Some people say that every one has free will. Others say that no one has free will. That is doesnt exist. What do you think?
Ultimately there is no such thing as free will.

You pretty much have to forget everything you know about physics and live in a dream world before you can allow yourself the loose thinking required to accept "free will".

We are basically organic robots, doing exactly as we are "programmed". All events within the universe (and within our brains) are 100% determined by the fundamental forces and laws governing reality. The forces are gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak nuclear. There is no such thing as the thought force. We cannot bend electrons or cause chemical reactions to occur with the power of our minds. We are conscious observers.

But, from the Viewpoint of our conceptual reality, that of the images we "see" of the sounds that we "hear", of the thoughts that we "visualise" we have choices that we "make", we feel "love" and "hatred", we feel "remorse" and "guilt" from doing things we imagine as "bad". We are ultimately living conceptual lives which is somewhat different from the cold hard reality within which we live.
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09-05-2016, 03:46 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 03:32 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 04:06 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Some people say that every one has free will. Others say that no one has free will. That is doesnt exist. What do you think?
Ultimately there is no such thing as free will.

You pretty much have to forget everything you know about physics and live in a dream world before you can allow yourself the loose thinking required to accept "free will".

We are basically organic robots, doing exactly as we are "programmed". All events within the universe (and within our brains) are 100% determined by the fundamental forces and laws governing reality. The forces are gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak nuclear. There is no such thing as the thought force. We cannot bend electrons or cause chemical reactions to occur with the power of our minds. We are conscious observers.

But, from the Viewpoint of our conceptual reality, that of the images we "see" of the sounds that we "hear", of the thoughts that we "visualise" we have choices that we "make", we feel "love" and "hatred", we feel "remorse" and "guilt" from doing things we imagine as "bad". We are ultimately living conceptual lives which is somewhat different from the cold hard reality within which we live.

Determinism is to ethics what the passage of time is to comic books; it exists in a fuge state along the lines of "I won't bring it up if you don't". Wink

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09-05-2016, 05:04 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2016 05:10 AM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Does free will exist?
(08-05-2016 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 03:41 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I'm a pragmatist myself; I don't think the answer to this question matters because it makes no tangible difference. Whether we have free will or an illusion of free will so convincing that we believe it to be real - it's all the same to me.

Unfortunately, free-will doesn't exist inside a vacuum. The whole criminal justice system is built around the construct of free-will and culpability, and crumbles in the face of something like determinism. The more we understand how the human mind works, and how much things entirely beyond our conscious control affect it and our decision making process, determining culpability gets harder and harder as you further widen the circle of influence and causation with our ever increasing knowledge on the subject.

The question is, did the people who built the criminal justice system have any choice in the matter? Could they have built it any different?

If the serial killer had no choice but to murder, then couldn't we say the same about the people who punish him? If the serial killer is not culpable, then neither is person (or criminal justice system) who kills him.

I don't see any meaningful difference. If we have free will, the murderer got what he deserved, if not, and he can't be held responsible, then neither can those who inflict punishment upon him. With no free will, the punishers had no choice but to punish.

I actually like retribution. I want serial rapists, murderers, and child molesters to suffer. I don't really care if they're free agents or not.
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09-05-2016, 07:49 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 05:04 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Unfortunately, free-will doesn't exist inside a vacuum. The whole criminal justice system is built around the construct of free-will and culpability, and crumbles in the face of something like determinism. The more we understand how the human mind works, and how much things entirely beyond our conscious control affect it and our decision making process, determining culpability gets harder and harder as you further widen the circle of influence and causation with our ever increasing knowledge on the subject.

The question is, did the people who built the criminal justice system have any choice in the matter? Could they have built it any different?

If the serial killer had no choice but to murder, then couldn't we say the same about the people who punish him? If the serial killer is not culpable, then neither is person (or criminal justice system) who kills him.

I don't see any meaningful difference. If we have free will, the murderer got what he deserved, if not, and he can't be held responsible, then neither can those who inflict punishment upon him. With no free will, the punishers had no choice but to punish.

I actually like retribution. I want serial rapists, murderers, and child molesters to suffer. I don't really care if they're free agents or not.

Knowledge. Knowledge, as always, is the key. Once you're made aware of just how illusory free-will is, then that knowledge should have an affect on future considerations and decisions. It makes the idea of retributive justice even more of an appalling oxymoron than it already was.

Yeah, child molestation is a terrible and devastating crime. But in light of what we currently know about neurology, what really separates me from a child molester? Well, I was lucky enough to be born into a set of circumstances (not impoverished, decent education, loving parents, etc.) that helped guide my along a relatively normative path with a capacity for empathy. All of the circumstances that have shaped me along this journey, that helped form me into a non-child molester? All entirely out of my conscious control. Big picture here, from the point of view of the universe, sheer luck and happenstance had me born into relative privilege (chatting here on this forum instead of dying of eye parasite in sub Saharan Africa). In light of this sobering knowledge, it's hard to hold on to hate for an individual for the circumstances of their life. If they've done wrong or otherwise pose a threat, then for the good of others action must be taken; but at no point does this realization justify a desire for revenge or stoke the embers of hatred.

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09-05-2016, 08:31 AM
RE: Does free will exist?
(09-05-2016 07:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 05:04 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The question is, did the people who built the criminal justice system have any choice in the matter? Could they have built it any different?

If the serial killer had no choice but to murder, then couldn't we say the same about the people who punish him? If the serial killer is not culpable, then neither is person (or criminal justice system) who kills him.

I don't see any meaningful difference. If we have free will, the murderer got what he deserved, if not, and he can't be held responsible, then neither can those who inflict punishment upon him. With no free will, the punishers had no choice but to punish.

I actually like retribution. I want serial rapists, murderers, and child molesters to suffer. I don't really care if they're free agents or not.

Knowledge. Knowledge, as always, is the key. Once you're made aware of just how illusory free-will is, then that knowledge should have an affect on future considerations and decisions. It makes the idea of retributive justice even more of an appalling oxymoron than it already was.

Yeah, child molestation is a terrible and devastating crime. But in light of what we currently know about neurology, what really separates me from a child molester? Well, I was lucky enough to be born into a set of circumstances (not impoverished, decent education, loving parents, etc.) that helped guide my along a relatively normative path with a capacity for empathy. All of the circumstances that have shaped me along this journey, that helped form me into a non-child molester? All entirely out of my conscious control. Big picture here, from the point of view of the universe, sheer luck and happenstance had me born into relative privilege (chatting here on this forum instead of dying of eye parasite in sub Saharan Africa). In light of this sobering knowledge, it's hard to hold on to hate for an individual for the circumstances of their life. If they've done wrong or otherwise pose a threat, then for the good of others action must be taken; but at no point does this realization justify a desire for revenge or stoke the embers of hatred.

The problem is that we can make the exact same argument for a person (or system) who is punishing a rapist. The punisher only punishes as a result of the circumstances that shaped him. "The punisher knows not what he does" I guess you could say.

It's weird to me that you want accountability for the criminal justice system, but not for murdering psychopaths.

If the child molesters have no choice but to molest, then people who punish molesters have no choice but to punish. It's weird that you only point the finger at the punishers.
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