Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
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26-11-2010, 04:39 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
Quote:Just one piece of successful evidence would make your case here. Should be the easiest thing you've ever done given the large amount of material you claim is so full of holes. Better check it out thoroughly tho' - I don't intend justifying every single verse. I'll grant you one attempt. Up for the challenge?

I'm always up for a challenge, but what I'm not up for is a wild goose chase, so let us lay the ground rules here first. You're asking me to find one - just one - example in the bible where god is not "good", is that correct? And, if that is correct, how are we defining "good" here?

For example, in the bible, god tests Abraham's faith by telling him to take his son, Issac, to the top of Mt. Moriah and offer him as a sacrifice to god to show Abraham's faith and loyalty. Abraham does as he's told and at the last moment god says "Just kidding! you don't really have to murder your only son for me". Now, to me, asking Abraham to do anything like this is in and of itself cruel and no good and just god would do such a thing. So, before we go on, tell me how you read this situation.

I need to know this before I can decide if this is a fair challenge or not.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-11-2010, 05:51 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
(26-11-2010 10:58 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Prove it for yourself Godless - google anything you think is proof of God being bad and come back to me if you can't find overwhelming evidence that the opposite is actually what is written.

You can't prove the book that is predicated on a good God that God is not good, unless you deliberately misinterpret the book. That much is abundantly clear. What you attribute to the book is obviously mistaken, if you think it says otherwise.

People might argue that black is white, but that doesn't make it so.

A book by an all powerful all knowing perfect god shouldn't need inferior humans to "interpret it" I stand by what I said because the book is plain in it's intentions and it's only people who try to force their compassion onto religion that interpret such a book as good.

I was raised a Christian Fr0d0. I preached numerous times as a child to others about the very things you speak here. I am well familiar with all the of the justifications and most of the major "interpretations" of Yahweh's actions in the bible.

It was by reading the bible without an "interpreter" looking over my shoulder and being honest with myself that I came to my current position. I've faced a lot of persecution for my beliefs but I can't turn my back on the truth.

If you choose to continue circular reasoning and accusing others of mistranslating things because the truth doesn't line up with all the Sundays you had as a child in indoctrination classes then that's fine but stop with the denial unless you are going to post an honest to goodness basis for your statements and have the will to take up the challenges you thrust on others for proof.

Thanks,

Jeff
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26-11-2010, 06:33 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
(26-11-2010 04:39 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'm always up for a challenge, but what I'm not up for is a wild goose chase, so let us lay the ground rules here first. You're asking me to find one - just one - example in the bible where god is not "good", is that correct? And, if that is correct, how are we defining "good" here?

For example, in the bible, god tests Abraham's faith by telling him to take his son, Issac, to the top of Mt. Moriah and offer him as a sacrifice to god to show Abraham's faith and loyalty. Abraham does as he's told and at the last moment god says "Just kidding! you don't really have to murder your only son for me". Now, to me, asking Abraham to do anything like this is in and of itself cruel and no good and just god would do such a thing. So, before we go on, tell me how you read this situation.

I need to know this before I can decide if this is a fair challenge or not.
If God asked for murder, then that is bad. If it was a cruel thing to ask, then that's bad. Whilst I would agree with your initial concerns, I could prove that God wasn't in fact condoning murder or acting cruelly. That's the game > you present a case where I can't show you how you're reading it against what is actually being said.

Same applies for me here too. Of course you can deny everything presented. Like I've had Unbeliever deny that the double blind prayer test was proof of nothing, as one huge flaw in the test was that the answers were unknown. Unbeliever insists that the answers had to be yes or the prayer wasn't answered. Black is white.
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26-11-2010, 06:38 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
so frodo god can command/encourage/allow something bad without being culpable?
ok now I understand perfectly Wink

I tell someone to go murder someone else, they do, I am obviously moral inept.

God tells someone to go murder someone else, they do, but God wasn't acting immoral, not really.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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26-11-2010, 06:41 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
God's ways are apparently above ours by Fr0d0s logic but yet we as humans have enough understanding of god's ways to deem him good?

Anyone else see the contradiction there?
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26-11-2010, 06:57 PM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2010 07:06 PM by fr0d0.)
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
(26-11-2010 05:51 PM)Godless Wrote:  A book by an all powerful all knowing perfect god shouldn't need inferior humans to "interpret it" I stand by what I said because the book is plain in it's intentions and it's only people who try to force their compassion onto religion that interpret such a book as good.

I was raised a Christian Fr0d0. I preached numerous times as a child to others about the very things you speak here. I am well familiar with all the of the justifications and most of the major "interpretations" of Yahweh's actions in the bible.

It was by reading the bible without an "interpreter" looking over my shoulder and being honest with myself that I came to my current position. I've faced a lot of persecution for my beliefs but I can't turn my back on the truth.

If you choose to continue circular reasoning and accusing others of mistranslating things because the truth doesn't line up with all the Sundays you had as a child in indoctrination classes then that's fine but stop with the denial unless you are going to post an honest to goodness basis for your statements and have the will to take up the challenges you thrust on others for proof.

Thanks,

Jeff
Hey Jeff

I had no such indoctrination - I became a believer in my mid 20's. Christianity was new to me then.

The book was clearly written by man, and not God. God is said to inspire it, but that's a universe away from saying he wrote it. I happen to believe it to be the best theological example we've got, but I don't deny the possibility that it could be bettered.

I'm not basing my logic on indoctrination, but pure rational exploration. How do you explain the authors of the book (the Jews) summarising God's nature as 'good' if, like you say, they said the opposite in what they observed and wrote down about him? It seems an absurd position you're adopting, with respect.

So let me list your reasons to object:
1. literal translation is the only translation
2. Indoctrination denies rational thought

The Jews have a writing style that's anything but literal. They talk in riddles, allegory, poem. Please take a look at the excerpt I linked of an excellent new book which lays down extremely strong evidence against what you're saying: http://tinyurl.com/23d7vya

I absolutely agree. Indoctrination should be avoided at all costs.

Indoctrination results in irrational literalist mumbo jumbo that you and I could shoot down like fish in a barrel.

I don't see my huge error here. All I see are people too afraid to trust themselves to be rational in the face of overwhelming logic.

Yeah I agree religion has done and is doing terrible things. I fully understand what fuels the hatred against it. I've felt similar feelings myself. Reacting to nutjobs like a nutjob isn't the answer tho'. You need to be rational and focussed on the real issues, not making yourself look foolish by clinging on to irrationalities.
(26-11-2010 06:38 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  so frodo god can command/encourage/allow something bad without being culpable?
ok now I understand perfectly Wink

I tell someone to go murder someone else, they do, I am obviously moral inept.

God tells someone to go murder someone else, they do, but God wasn't acting immoral, not really.
Just in case you weren't joking... God never commands or encourages anything bad. If he did he would be bad. The challenge is to prove where that's stated in the bible.
(26-11-2010 06:41 PM)Godless Wrote:  God's ways are apparently above ours by Fr0d0s logic but yet we as humans have enough understanding of god's ways to deem him good?

Anyone else see the contradiction there?
I can work out what would make good laws for society to function, and I might break those laws. Is that a contradiction?
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26-11-2010, 07:04 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
(26-11-2010 06:57 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  How do you explain the authors of the book (the Jews) summarising God's nature as 'good' if what you also say is that they said the opposite in what they observed and wrote down about him? It seems an absurd position you're adopting, with respect.

societies in the bronze age did not see genocide, rape, and torture as morally repugnant, at least not against their enemies.

Find a nazi and ask them if the 'final solution' was just and good.
The fact is, what is moral and immoral is relative to the culture and era.
Torturing prisoners was never seen as anything more than punishment for a crime, but today most countries see that torture is cruel and inhumane.

Killing in the name of god used to get you cheers and support, nowadays if you say you're going to kill in the name of god you'll get put in a padded room.

Get what I'm saying?

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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26-11-2010, 07:15 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
I get what you're saying but understand the morality prescribed by God to be unchanging. Secular morals change where religious morals don't. The religious have the model of right and wrong and it's fixed.

The Xtian has the notion of justice met, and that's how he deals with the world fairly. The secularist sees no real justice and moulds his worldview accordingly.
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26-11-2010, 07:40 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
A fixed moral compass is only useful if it happens to actually be morally correct.
As we've demonstrated, rape, murder, genocide, infanticide, slavery, torture and sacrifice is NOT moral.

A secular view takes the world as it is, with evidence to support the claim the secularist makes.
Doing bad things to people generally makes them wary or hateful towwards you, thats not good for a society.

Besides that secularism is based on logic, reason, and rationality. I realize some people can't think for themselves, but they could at least try.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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26-11-2010, 08:05 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
Quote:I get what you're saying but understand the morality prescribed by God to be unchanging. Secular morals change where religious morals don't. The religious have the model of right and wrong and it's fixed.

So, getting back to UTM's point, you therefore believe that slavery is moral? That killing everyone who does not agree with you perspective on god is moral? Because, that is absolutely what the bible allows for. Those things fit within the definition of good?

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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