Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
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27-11-2010, 05:17 AM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
(26-11-2010 07:40 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  A fixed moral compass is only useful if it happens to actually be morally correct.
As we've demonstrated, rape, murder, genocide, infanticide, slavery, torture and sacrifice is NOT moral.
And I've demonstrated God is guilty of none of those things that would make him at all immoral

(26-11-2010 07:40 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  A secular view takes the world as it is, with evidence to support the claim the secularist makes.
Doing bad things to people generally makes them wary or hateful towwards you, thats not good for a society.

Besides that secularism is based on logic, reason, and rationality. I realize some people can't think for themselves, but they could at least try.
Secularism can be immoral and unjust. It's a poor substitute. Thinking people are faced with limited choices in it.

Under the law you do what you have to to keep to the rules. Under God you want to keep to more than the law, to do what the law aims at, because you want to.

Logically you'd do what benefits you rather than obey the law. Considering God you'd do what benefits everyone and everything over yourself.
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27-11-2010, 07:20 AM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
(26-11-2010 08:05 PM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:I get what you're saying but understand the morality prescribed by God to be unchanging. Secular morals change where religious morals don't. The religious have the model of right and wrong and it's fixed.

So, getting back to UTM's point, you therefore believe that slavery is moral? That killing everyone who does not agree with your perspective on god is moral? Because, that is absolutely what the bible allows for. Those things fit within the definition of good?
No those things are not within my definition of good. At those times, slavery happened. That is: the secular morality of the time accepted slavery.

Fixed morality worked against it.
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27-11-2010, 09:43 AM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
Quote:No those things are not within my definition of good. At those times, slavery happened. That is: the secular morality of the time accepted slavery.

Fixed morality worked against it.

So, you're saying that the god of the bible did not condone slavery? Have you actually ever read the old testament?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

or

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

or, my personal favorite:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

I love this last one the best because it not only shows that slavery is ok but you can sell your own daughter. I bet that's convenient around the holidays when cashflow tends to get a little tight.

Anyway, those 3 passages are direct from the bible, which is the basis of Christianity. And, those instructions are extremely specific. There is nothing generic there. Explain to me how that is moral. Explain to me how this does not mean what it says. Explain to me how this is only a secular belief and not from god himself, as he is mentioned by name in some of these.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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27-11-2010, 10:36 AM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
We're talking about laws here that were made following the ten commandments... an application of the law to the current secular reality.

God doesn't prescribe slavery. The reference to God is about considering ultimate justice in your decisions.

So.. the text promotes fairness. Slavery symbolises the restrictiveness of rejecting God.
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27-11-2010, 11:58 AM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
Quote:So.. the text promotes fairness. Slavery symbolises the restrictiveness of rejecting God.

No it doesn't and no it doesn't. The text does not promote fairness if slavery is immoral. And, this is the book for how to follow god, not reject him. Sorry, but that answer is nothing but double talk. It is not at all consistent with the bible. The bible very clearly allows for slavery and following the bible is the self proclaimed path to righteousness Therefore, the only reasonably conclusion is that the Jewish and Christian god were ok with slavery.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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27-11-2010, 02:22 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
The text doesn't promote fairness if it shows that God is ok with slavery, which it doesn't. It shows laws on dealing with slavery in a time when slavery was the societal norm.
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27-11-2010, 04:57 PM
 
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
(27-11-2010 02:22 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  It shows laws on dealing with slavery in a time when slavery was the societal norm.

So, the views and statements expressed in the Bible are not God's views, but the secular views of the time that were given a divine significance so that they would become unquestionable....

Sounds just about right to me.
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27-11-2010, 05:07 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
No, universal laws were applied to the secular norm and recorded to make a point about the nature of God: about his forgiveness from the bondage of sin.
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27-11-2010, 07:53 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
Oh yes the slavery is totally symbolic...that's why god commanded the female slaves should not go out as the males do (gender bias) or how to beat and mark your slaves and where you can and cannot buy your slaves....

and so on and so on.. totally symbolic.

Seriously Fr0d0...I give up with trying to get any semblance of reason with you.
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27-11-2010, 07:59 PM
RE: Does it matter if an Atheist doesn't fully understand evolution?
If God commanded that then I could agree with you Godless.
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