Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
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15-09-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 07:22 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 07:12 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Kick him in the balls. Then ask him if he feels the results of the universe.

Metaphorically speaking.

Lol.

Yeah, I've read his other threads and pretty much this is what he falls back on. I don't think he is being intellectually honest. One user might say "We no evidence that anything beyond our universe exists." To which he just replies "We have no evidence that there is not nothing beyond our universe."

Yeah, this person isn't debating, they are preaching. You're just giving them the fodder to distort that they need and want.

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15-09-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:28 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I've been in a debate on Reddit and this line of thinking really is driving me nuts. This user keeps coming back to "there is no evidence that the physical is all there is. So it's not logical to believe that the physical is all there is."

This is a really cheap try to shift the burden of proof with a straw man.

Who clams that "the physical is all there is"? Your dishonest opponent! People here would say:
#1 There is evidence the physical exists
#2 There is no(t enough) evidence something else exists

Ergo we (currently) believe that only the physical exist.

If he wants us to believe that something else exists, he needs to bring ....evidence, ya know.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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15-09-2017, 08:17 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
I think most of you here are right, down this path lies nothing but madness, he is not debating honestly.
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15-09-2017, 08:19 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:56 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  "So we agree, unicorns and a "physical only model" of the universe both have the same amount of evidence.

The only question is why do I reject both but some hold onto the "physical only model" of the universe? "

He's stuck on the idea that you can prove a negative. At least in this case.

We have evidence for the physical universe so unless he's a solipsist we can discard that as a red herring. We agree that there is a physical universe.

It now becomes: "unicorns and 'something more than the physical' both have the same amount of evidence" and that's why we don't accept the "something more" claim any more than we accept the unicorn claim.

Don't try to argue that there is nothing more than the physical universe; ask what evidence there is for anything else.

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15-09-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
If I were to start life over again, I would probably study animal perception.

Our reality consists of what we can perceive plus what we can measure.

What we can perceive is pretty fixed because it is limited to our senses. If and when we happen to probe things we don't actually perceive, we find all kinds of neat things.

Other animals perceive other things, things we have to happen to try to measure. For instance, we all shed our skin constantly and wherever we go and whatever we do, we leave a trail of skin particles. Now, we are not at all aware of this, can't feel, see, smell, taste or hear it.

Dogs, however, are acutely aware of it. We harness that capability and train search and rescue and tracking dogs. They just follow the trail of skin particles.

If no one had thought to measure this (as in science), we still wouldn't know about it, but the dogs would.

Assuming that there isn't a lot of stuff that we cannot perceive or measure yet, is assuming that science has done all it can do.

That, of course, is not true.

So, yes, I assume there is a lot of stuff all around us that we don't know about. And we don't know whether there are other animals who can perceive them. Hence my interest in animal perception.

I don't see, though, how that points to anything super natural - it is all natural. Just like people used to think that thunder was god's voice before they understood how thunder happens.

My bet is that 100 years from now, people will consider our knowledge just as primitive as we see the knowledge from 100 years ago. And we will have discovered many things we now think don't exist. No gods needed.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-09-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 08:19 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 06:56 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  "So we agree, unicorns and a "physical only model" of the universe both have the same amount of evidence.

The only question is why do I reject both but some hold onto the "physical only model" of the universe? "

He's stuck on the idea that you can prove a negative. At least in this case.

We have evidence for the physical universe so unless he's a solipsist we can discard that as a red herring. We agree that there is a physical universe.

It now becomes: "unicorns and 'something more than the physical' both have the same amount of evidence" and that's why we don't accept the "something more" claim any more than we accept the unicorn claim.

Don't try to argue that there is nothing more than the physical universe; ask what evidence there is for anything else.

I try, but all i get is the same copy pasta "Give me evidence that only the physical universe exists."

I have conceded several times that there could indeed be more, but we should not believe it's true until we have evidence. and then we go in circles again.
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15-09-2017, 08:39 AM
Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 07:22 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 07:12 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Kick him in the balls. Then ask him if he feels the results of the universe.

Metaphorically speaking.

Lol.

Yeah, I've read his other threads and pretty much this is what he falls back on. I don't think he is being intellectually honest. One user might say "We no evidence that anything beyond our universe exists." To which he just replies "We have no evidence that there is not nothing beyond our universe."


And that is the classic argument from ignorance where a proposition is considered true unless disproved. The correct counter for this is to point out his logical fallacy and ask that he provide evidence for anything existing beyond the universe and how he knows. Shifting the burden of proof back on to him where it belongs will force intellectual honesty back on him.
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15-09-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 08:36 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I try, but all i get is the same copy pasta "Give me evidence that only the physical universe exists."

I have conceded several times that there could indeed be more, but we should not believe it's true until we have evidence. and then we go in circles again.

Demand evidence from him that there is anything other than the physical universe.

Demand that he defines what this could possibly be. If it isn't matter or energy, then what is it and what evidence is there that it exists. Push the burden of proof back on him where it belongs.
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15-09-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 08:41 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 08:36 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  I try, but all i get is the same copy pasta "Give me evidence that only the physical universe exists."

I have conceded several times that there could indeed be more, but we should not believe it's true until we have evidence. and then we go in circles again.

Demand evidence from him that there is anything other than the physical universe.

Demand that he defines what this could possibly be. If it isn't matter or energy, then what is it and what evidence is there that it exists. Push the burden of proof back on him where it belongs.

Which is where I got with the OP and logic.
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15-09-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 08:39 AM)Rachel Wrote:  And that is the classic argument from ignorance where a proposition is considered true unless disproved. The correct counter for this is to point out his logical fallacy and ask that he provide evidence for anything existing beyond the universe and how he knows. Shifting the burden of proof back on to him where it belongs will force intellectual honesty back on him.

I'm a man. Trust me. Balls.

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