Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
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15-09-2017, 08:51 AM
Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 08:49 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 08:39 AM)Rachel Wrote:  And that is the classic argument from ignorance where a proposition is considered true unless disproved. The correct counter for this is to point out his logical fallacy and ask that he provide evidence for anything existing beyond the universe and how he knows. Shifting the burden of proof back on to him where it belongs will force intellectual honesty back on him.

I'm a man. Trust me. Balls.

Wink


Eh? When was this in question?
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15-09-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 08:51 AM)Rachel Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 08:49 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I'm a man. Trust me. Balls.

Wink


Eh? When was this in question?

Don't belabor the point. Big Grin

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15-09-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 08:47 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 08:41 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Demand evidence from him that there is anything other than the physical universe.

Demand that he defines what this could possibly be. If it isn't matter or energy, then what is it and what evidence is there that it exists. Push the burden of proof back on him where it belongs.

Which is where I got with the OP and logic.

In that case I'm inclined to go with Banjo's suggestion.
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15-09-2017, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2017 09:05 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
Except that logic does exist in the physical universe.
So there's that.
This is the same word salad bullshit that theist like to spew.
The old saw like "do you love your child? Prove it".
It's just word salad.
Logic is what Logic is.
The product of consciousness and experience of the physical universe.
It's value is based on observation etc etc.
The proposition that "Logic isn't possible in a physical only universe" fails out of the gate.
It only has relevance if you accept going in that there is something to consciousness that is beyond the physical existence of the brain.
Which has no basis.
It has "truthiness on it's side". It sounds profound but when you examine it, it is just pure bullshit.

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15-09-2017, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2017 09:56 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 07:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 06:56 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  No lie here is his response see already from last night.

"So we agree, unicorns and a "physical only model" of the universe both have the same amount of evidence.

The only question is why do I reject both but some hold onto the "physical only model" of the universe? "

He's stuck on the idea that you can prove a negative. At least in this case.

He misconstrued the argument to construct another argument from ignorance.

We have evidence of this universe, where is the evidence of anything existing that isn't part of this universe? One can't assert it is possible for something beyond our universe to exist, without evidence of it (once again, an imagination gets us nowhere).

It's also the fallacy of the excluded middle, (also called black and white thinking).
Our brains evolved to deal with the world they saw on the African savannah ... a fairly macro level. However we HAVE EVIDENCE for the things we can infer about the universe we cannot detect with our senses, directly, (obtained by microscopes, experimentation etc etc). The universe has been proven (with experimentation) to be non-intuitive, (logic is necessary but not sufficient), on the macro level, micro level, and quantum level : Uncertainty, Relativity, Quantum weirdness, some math (Dirac), Dark Matter, Dark Energy, ... BUT this has all been confirmed by, (or at least shown to have evidence for) experimental results. There are unknown things at the moment, (the mechanism for Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" for example), but it sure as hell is not "spiritual" which we all know they're trying to imply in the argument.

Brains evolved processes to store (and access) memory, in DNA, and other ways.
https://futurism.com/memories-can-inheri...t-figured/
There is no reason to posit some unknown woo to explain anything we observe. It is just (as said above) an argument from personal incredulity (fallacy), and an argument from ignorance (fallacy). Brains that are diseased and injured do not work, and if there was something (a spiritual force or soul driving them or underlying), THAT would still work, when they are diseased or injured, and it is NEVER observed. Stated correctly, pink sparkly unicorns and anything OTHER than the physical have the same amount of evidence. There is not a shred of evidence for anything OTHER than the physical at this point.

Quote:I've been in a debate on Reddit and this line of thinking really is driving me nuts. This user keeps coming back to "there is no evidence that the physical is all there is. So it's not logical to believe that the physical is all there is.

By this idiotic "logic" they cannot rule out pink sparkly unicorns, because there is no evidence they don't exist. Facepalm

There is also implied in this argument a two-faced notion about the "validity" of human nature. IF we are born with an inclination to "believe" and that part of human nature they accept as a good thing, then why do they also claim that "we are born in sin" (and need redemption), and that is a bad thing. If we need redemption, then why don't we also need redemption from (their claimed) predisposition to belief and proclivity for woo ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-09-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
Ask him to prove that the physical universe plus the realm that his god lives in is all there is. Since we can't prove that there isn't another, "higher" god that created his god (and made it think it was eternal and all there was) then it's reasonable to believe that the christian god is just the creation of the meta-god.

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15-09-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 07:27 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-09-2017 07:22 AM)herrozerro Wrote:  Lol.

Yeah, I've read his other threads and pretty much this is what he falls back on. I don't think he is being intellectually honest. One user might say "We no evidence that anything beyond our universe exists." To which he just replies "We have no evidence that there is not nothing beyond our universe."

Yeah, this person isn't debating, they are preaching. You're just giving them the fodder to distort that they need and want.

The need to preach. Why do they do it, and *need* (so desperately) to preach. Because on some level, they know it's all bullshit, and if they can get someone else to buy into the bullshit, they get some measure of affirmation ("See you believe this crap too ... so I can't be ALL wrong").

Guess what ? It IS *all wrong*.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-09-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 09:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The need to preach. Why do they do it, and *need* (so desperately) to preach. Because on some level, they know it's all bullshit, and if they can get someone else to buy into the bullshit, they get some measure of affirmation ("See you believe this crap too ... so I can't be ALL wrong").

Guess what ? It IS *all wrong*.

The weight of denial grows heavier by the day when the likelihood that you have wasted your life is a real possibility. This may be the worst of the many sins that religion commits against it's followers.




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15-09-2017, 10:44 AM
Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
It's just bullshit not worth the reply.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-09-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Does logic mean there is more than the physical universe?
(15-09-2017 06:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That is an argument from ignorance.
...
It would be akin to this example:
Person 2: "We don't have evidence that unicorns don't exist, so they might very well exist but their magic prevents them from being detected by scientific means."

And just in case they still aren't grokking this line of thinking, they should realize that our legal system is based on it, as well.

"We don't have evidence that John didn't commit the murder, so we should put him on trial"
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